Oxygen concentrator questions
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I am presently designing a new pond to replace my old ten year old pond. It will be just a 16 Ton pond with a turnover of 2x an hour with multiple aerated bakki shower and aerated vertical jmatt setup with aerated seive as first filter. I will put in around 9 50cm Nisai for the moment but would probably double the number in three years.

    Anyway, I am not considering a chiller for now but an oxygen concentrator 5liter capacity.

    My questions are:
    1. I recently talked to the son of toshio Sakai(INC) about oxygen concentrator and he said the device helps improve dissolved oxygen in the pond evenly and will increase appetite of koi and make them much bigger quicker but the danger is that most kois that get used to such environment with oxygen concentrator might have problems adjusting to lower dissolved oxygen environment as such he said once you start, never stop.

    2. Is the 5 liter per minute enough for the size of the pond considering I plan to add around 4 to 5 60 lpm air pumps also aside from a 2.5 meter wide bakki shower 8000gph output.

    3. Can the oxygen output hose be connected to a small water pump to produce a Venturi effect as compared to just airstone. I feel that since psi output is so weak, airstone might not be as effective.

    4. Is there a danger of over saturation of oxygen?

    I hope some of the sifu here can give me some inputs and comments.
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, I have used Oxygen Concentrator for many months now (8 months I think or probably more). I have stopped using because the unit need to be serviced (kept shutting down). Have not used it for about 3 weeks now. No weird behavior from the fishes that I know......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Its unfortunate that I forgot to ask toshio son how long exposure to oxygen concentrator would result in "used to". He does not seem keen on using such device compared to SFF although he encourages a very well aerated pond system.

    Bro Shukri,
    I have heard from many forumers about issues regarding the longevity of many oxygen concentrators. Is it the problem of the design or the brand? I have research a brand SEqual workhorse that manufacturer claim is more rugged and will last much longer.
    Any idea if US made Invacare perfecto 2 is suitable as this model seems worth the price?

    Btw, since you stopped using where your kois less hungry for food?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-14 09:21:12 pm
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    What I need to do is to spend time and service the equipment. My kois are forever hungry, with or without the O2 Concentrator........What I have noticed is that a very oxygenated pond seldom caused the fishes to be sick. This is my own opinion OK! and I am not making claims across the board.....only from my observation on my own fishes.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Shukri,

    Your opinion and others opinion are important to me in order for me to plan properly my new setup which will probably include an oxygen concentrator. If SFF believes in this technology, then I think I'm ok with it. The problem seems to lie with the lack of more information in the web with regards to the use of this technology in growing kois as such forum like this would be of much help. I have heard some kois being groomed for koi show in japan are intentionally placed in pond with oxygen concentrator. I am not sure if this is true though and if true for what intended purposes.



  • cookcpucookcpu March 2012
    Posts: 462
    http://www.healthoxygen.com/airsep-newlife-intensity-10lpm-sf-om-ltot-oxygen-concentrator.html

    Some of the Singapore koikichi use the above model.

    I was told that the supplier do offer maintenance contract for the OC.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu, i try answer your questions. IMO,
    1. Fish expose to good water condition including higher DO pond tend to have trouble if move to other pond. It will stress during certain period of time but will adap to new environment. Unless the new environment too extreme. IMO, most fish will adapt without any problem.

    2. Airpump and BS do surely increase DO but we have to remember that O2 in the air only 21% while OC can produce until 99% pure O2.

    3. Using venturi will help a lot in dissolving gass to water, also help reduce the backpressure to the unit either hiblow or OC. The only weak point in venturi is it need powerful pump and also the venturi itself have a backpressure issue. Another option is using needle wheel pump which is use in protein skimmer for marine fish, it have good dissolving air and low wattage. I currently experimenting my new protein skimmer using NW. My previous injector PS also have been posted here, if i am no mistaken. I also experimenting in oxygen saturator, which principle is to use and reuse pure oxygen.

    4. Is there a danger of over saturation of oxygen?
    It is also an issue that bother me previously. But brother david convince me that no such problem is happening to his pond and koi. And increasing DO level will sure more appetite, reduce stress especially in heavy populated pond, and at night in pond which have a lot of algae. This will prevent. The pH and O2 swing.

    Regards,
    Harry
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Thank you for your comment.

    Your suggestion of the needle wheel pump to better dissolve the oxygen to the water is a great idea. Does that mean that connecting the OC to the needle wheel pump will dissolve the oxygen much better in the water compared to just using an airstone where some of the oxygen bubble will just rise up and be wasted?

    Is there a possibility of gas bubble disease if oxygen bubbles are so small if needle wheel pump is used? Where would be the best place to place the OC connected to the needle wheel pump? Inside the filter chamber or directly to the pond?

    With regards to using an oxygen saturator along with a OC, do you think this willbe even more efficient in dissolving the oxygen in the water compared to using the needle wheel pump

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-15 08:23:51 am
  • boykoiboykoi March 2012
    Posts: 186
    bro HDCU,

    to my opinion,toshi is right,once you used it in your normal pond set-up its advisable not to stop it.in just my view,it would be better if youd use this just as back-up or if you have a smaller tank for kois that are sick,or for growouts. Nissais and bigger kois have issues with adjusting different levels of oxygen and are most likely gets sick about this than tosais.

    IMHO,it would be better to let your bakki and pond aeration drive your desired oxygen levels than a dedicated concentrator for this.ive inquired bout this before and this devices are technical stuff,even if theyd gave 1 to me its still a headache to get it serviced and not to mention power consumption.it consumes power equivalent to 5 150lpm blowers, and so id prefer to have more blowers than a concentrator. My experience with my bakki also tells me that not only does it help aeration and oxygen levels but lowering down temperatures 2 deg c than the normal temp and keeps nitrates non existent. So to conclude, you may just get more bang for your bucks to get a right setup of bakki showers and several aerators for your set-up than a concentrator..just my opinion
    Post edited by boykoi at 2012-03-15 08:32:18 pm
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro boykoi,

    Thank you for the comments.
    I realize just now that 500watts of OC can probably power up 2 additional 5800GPH pump that can increase now pond turnover to 4x which will greatly improve water quality also.

    Question now would be would OC with 2x turnover now be better than increase turnover to 4x turnover without OC?
  • boykoiboykoi March 2012
    Posts: 186
    Bro HDCU,

    a lot has been said about water turned over,one thing i remembered the sifus sharing was, water turnover may have direct implications on higher OC because pond water goes through the filters faster thus are processed thoroughly. but when you have a higher turnover rates,you have to have at least half the tonnage of your filter vs to your pond so that the bio filters may work properly,rather than the usual 30 pct filter vs pond tonnage.

    as i was saying, you could do a lot more with 500watts than just a single machine. either more aerators or pumps will thoroughly help in more ways than just having a higher OC levels.
  • KaajKaaj March 2012
    Posts: 376
    "I realize just now that 500watts of OC can probably power up 2 additional 5800GPH pump that can increase now pond turnover to 4x which will greatly improve water quality also".

    Bro HDCU,
    I would like to question the logic in having a TOR 4xper hour. If your waste does not settle in your filter chambers, how will the compounds be broken down?
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Kaaj,

    In my present smaller pond setup which is presently crowded, I still feed from 8 to 12 times in a 24 hour cycle and still get away with very clean water with zero ammonia, nitrite
    And nitrate level of 25 and below with TDS never reaching 100. . I have consistently monitored my water(tds, ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate)as i have increaes feed whenever i feel size of koi has increased as well in size. To maintain my consistent water quality, I had to increase a corresponding filtration which involve additional filters, pump and turnover and increased Aeration and water change. Increased turnover has always been in line with an increase of filter medium to keep pace with koi growth and improve and maintain the skin quality of the inhabitants. I now have reached a point that turnover is now 5x to 6x with a 15 to 20 percent turnover depending on feed times.

    It has already become taxing to maintain consistent water quality. This is the reason why I am demolishing this old setup to give way to a 16 ton pond only with 2 x 2.5 ton japanese filter medium and 2 modules of bakki showers. Eventually, I predict that this would not even be enough as koi hobby is addictive as such I am trying to figure out to increase now already the turnover with a corresponding additional increase in filters and pump versus just putting an OC which will cost more or less the same including running cost. I know it could be overkill now but in a year or two, it might not be. Hopefully not though.

    Now going back to your question, unlike others i don't use Japanese Matt in this pond(I have another pond though that uses Japanese Matt), but use filters of very high surface area like siporax pond rings, sponge filters, and biobAlls all protected with wool sieves that are washed everyday. Why siporax? Because of BH is not available here while siporax claims to be able to help remove dissolve organic compounds that Japanese Matt cannot even at high turnover rate. With such high surface area filters, I cannot afford that waste settle much as to block the filters as such the need for higher turnover and much cleaner filter chambers. Bio chambers only purpose is to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and to some degree dissolve Organics. Solid waste should be flushed out as quick as possible to avoid possible bad bacteria or E. Colin from multiplying out of control in a small pond with many inhabitants.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-16 03:12:44 am
  • koilvrkoilvr March 2012
    Posts: 59
    bro HDCu, there's this method called Low Head Oxygenation or LHO that involves the use of OC unit to increase DO level in water. You might want to google it.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,
    NW is used to chop the bubble to smaller bubble which increase the amount of oxygen to be dissolved. Using any mean of aeration media such as airstone, air disk diffuser, or black hose will give a back pressure to your unit. And OC pressure rate, i don't think you can put deeper. NW or venturi surely help to prevent back pressure, your unit will work less harder, thus make your equipment either or hiblow las longer. Using venturi is better than NW in dissolving gas to water.

    I usually put air bubble before pump chamber, so water with high dissolved oxygen will be spread to pond in evenly manner better than if you just put in one spot. I rarely put bubble in pond due to aesthetic reason. How to enjoy koi if your water is "boiling". Turning on and off you aeration equipment is possibble but sometime it is pain in the a**. I do sometimes use bubble only mean to set a flow in certain spot/blank spot. Also some China brand hiblow, have pressure issue at deeper water.

    I ask sifu david on one occasion about gas bubble disease, and he said he is not having problem with it. And for safety precaution, you may need to use DO meter to measure the DO level.

    One of my concern as pond builder to offer my client using a OC is due to its price and wattage consumption. Using BS also may increase DO and lower temp, but it also need big and powerful pump for good result. And it can lower a nitrate level but cannot totally remove the nitrate. This make me think about creating a device that can improve higher DO and with less wattage consumption.

    Few thing about DO and bubble are :
    1. Smaller bubble is better
    2. Higher retention time/the longer the bubble stay at water column is better
    3. Oxygen is better dissolved in lower temp and lower altitude.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Can you explain how is it that Venturi is better in dissolving gas to water when you said that that needle wheel pump produces smaller bubbles?

    Also, there is also a consensus that in many deeper ponds, the dissolved oxygen in the deepest part has the lowest DO. Is this problem because of lower filter turnover or lack of proper mixing of pond water. In case you don't put direct aeration in the pond doesn't this reduce the turbulence and mixing rate of the pond water?
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    An interesting consideration you have there but I could not resist…hehehe.

    Oxygen super saturation (assuming that is what you are trying to achieve) can be toxic to many organisms including to your koi. With 4 to 5 units of 60lpm air pumps and an OC, I think you can achieved super saturation of O2 in your water quite easily.

    From what I know….high oxygen concentration can lead to high levels of toxic reactive oxygen radicals ….such as hyperoxide, hydroxyl radical OH++, nitric oxide and many others. These radicals react and change the nature of enzymes in cells, meddling with normal koi metabolism. I am sure you have researched into it that under supersaturated conditions, oxygen can "come out" of solution inside tissues forming micro bubbles inside fish, which lead to "Gas Bubble Disease". Having said this….the exact mechanism underlying oxygen toxicity central nervous system is not known, but the free radical theory appears to be the most likely explanation…..

    If you read into the equilibrium thermodynamics……it dictates that an extremely small proportion of oxygen in aqueous solution become radicals. Therefore, higher levels of oxygen would seem to result in higher levels of radicals. Oxygen radicals are extremely destructive to biological systems. You can Google for superoxide and how this superoxide is quite biological toxic.

    What you need to consider in your aeration system is such that at any one time…..your DO saturation level is not less than 80% and as close to the saturation level possible under a given temperature, atmospheric pressure, salinity and pH situation. This is widely accepted as a healthy aquatic environment. Yes…. we do not want a hyperoxia or a hypoxia in our fish pond unlike in the ocean…there is O2 super saturation occurring at the upper layer. The point is that our pond is not the ocean. IMHO it is best if we can mimic it to be like riverine conditions. It is a tall order I know in a close recirculation system….hehehe.

    Are you thinking of having high O2 can lower the CO2 concentration in the body of water?

    Hyperventilation cannot in a given volume of water at a set temperature, salinity and atmospheric pressure to hold a maximum amount of oxygen beyond it saturation level. To go beyond the saturation level…..like super saturation….which you have considered is by forcing oxygen into the water under pressure and IMO using a strong return water pump that can generate at least 1 bar of pressure at a venturi device would be great. I have one purchased and install at slightly below mid depth of my pond. I can control the amount of air it draws down and the bubbles it ejected are really very fine indeed.

    BTW….A dissolved oxygen level by itself isn't really going to tell you if your water is supersaturated. You would need several other variables like barometric pressure and temp. To calculate the total dissolved gas pressure can be a nightmare as the math equation is scary. To circumvent this….I have purchased an electronic meter that read to that effect. It reads quite near to what I have estimated it will be…..i.e. near to saturation level for my pond aeration needs.

    I like the air pumps venting air through the air stones and tubes. It adds drama and with underwater lighting it can be quite awe and serene to watch the koi swimming in the night. However, with this air delivery system via piping network embedded in the pond wall…..interstitial condensation inside the air pipes can happen and you will need to purge it.

    Cheers
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,
    Venturi using pressure to dissolved gas into water, and it can pushed the air bubble to 1,5m without no problem. While using NW can only aerated to max 1m, although you can tweak it using plumbing.
    By putting the aeration before pump chamber, and your pond pump can distributed the oxygenated water to your pond better, instead of put aeration diffuser in one spot.
    You can enjoy your fish swimming gracefully in like floating, and what is better is that you will immediately notice if something happen to your fish, ie got scratched.

    You can try to watch sifu david channel on youtube, that an example of a very good koi pond and koi keeping skill and equipment.

    Regards,
    Harry
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I have an OC and 4 air pumps all right........humm! So far so good! But I will check out the DO reading whether saturated or not....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    Assuming you are feeding on an average of 10 times per day. Assuming the total feed will be about 1kg and the feed span over a time period of ten hours and as your koi will eventually grow bigger in size......your feed may reach 1.5kg per day over the same time period.

    May I know how you have rationalized that a turnover rate of 2x is appropriate?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    First of all, the minimum span interval per feed that I do is 2 hours because that is the minimum time that the kois are able to fully digest at normal temperatures. When I say 10 x, it will be 6 times from 6 pm to 6 am and 4 times from 6am to 6 pm. I feed more at night because they are more active since water temp is lower at night. Yes, they do rest and some kois may eat less in some intervals. Yes you have to provide night light or else the kois will not be able to see at night

    I have noticed that by eating many times but in just few pellets, they stay more active and there is much less parking or indigestion brought about by too much eating in a few big serving. The growth rate is better as well. Their is also much less stress among the kois. They do not fight for the pellets anymore as well. Even the smaller kois have their chances while the big eaters are able to bulk faster without suffering from big stomach.

    Now since the kois are like constantly eating they are also constantly pooing but only a little as well. However, because of a faster turnover, my pond water always stay not only very clear even after every feeding while water parameters stay constant as long as trickle water constantly go in. It is imperative that in multiple times feeding, water quality and temperature should be monitored carefully. A drop in water quality or temperature not in the ideal range and the kois will skip meal and you will see more and more floating uneaten pellets which can get spoil if it get soaked in the water for a long time. An adequate filter that can process the ammonia, nitrite and organic waste as quick as possible before the next feeding is thus very important.

    When I said 2x would be appropriate compared to my present setup which is 5x, this is because In my new setup the ratio of koi size per water volume is much less. My 2x setup will be equivalent to six ERIC filter three setup plus two bakki showers more than enough for 3kg of koi feed a day.

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