Oxygen concentrator questions
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I am presently designing a new pond to replace my old ten year old pond. It will be just a 16 Ton pond with a turnover of 2x an hour with multiple aerated bakki shower and aerated vertical jmatt setup with aerated seive as first filter. I will put in around 9 50cm Nisai for the moment but would probably double the number in three years.

    Anyway, I am not considering a chiller for now but an oxygen concentrator 5liter capacity.

    My questions are:
    1. I recently talked to the son of toshio Sakai(INC) about oxygen concentrator and he said the device helps improve dissolved oxygen in the pond evenly and will increase appetite of koi and make them much bigger quicker but the danger is that most kois that get used to such environment with oxygen concentrator might have problems adjusting to lower dissolved oxygen environment as such he said once you start, never stop.

    2. Is the 5 liter per minute enough for the size of the pond considering I plan to add around 4 to 5 60 lpm air pumps also aside from a 2.5 meter wide bakki shower 8000gph output.

    3. Can the oxygen output hose be connected to a small water pump to produce a Venturi effect as compared to just airstone. I feel that since psi output is so weak, airstone might not be as effective.

    4. Is there a danger of over saturation of oxygen?

    I hope some of the sifu here can give me some inputs and comments.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-14 08:33:42 pm
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, I have used Oxygen Concentrator for many months now (8 months I think or probably more). I have stopped using because the unit need to be serviced (kept shutting down). Have not used it for about 3 weeks now. No weird behavior from the fishes that I know......
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  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Its unfortunate that I forgot to ask toshio son how long exposure to oxygen concentrator would result in "used to". He does not seem keen on using such device compared to SFF although he encourages a very well aerated pond system.

    Bro Shukri,
    I have heard from many forumers about issues regarding the longevity of many oxygen concentrators. Is it the problem of the design or the brand? I have research a brand SEqual workhorse that manufacturer claim is more rugged and will last much longer.
    Any idea if US made Invacare perfecto 2 is suitable as this model seems worth the price?

    Btw, since you stopped using where your kois less hungry for food?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-14 09:21:12 pm
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    What I need to do is to spend time and service the equipment. My kois are forever hungry, with or without the O2 Concentrator........What I have noticed is that a very oxygenated pond seldom caused the fishes to be sick. This is my own opinion OK! and I am not making claims across the board.....only from my observation on my own fishes.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Shukri,

    Your opinion and others opinion are important to me in order for me to plan properly my new setup which will probably include an oxygen concentrator. If SFF believes in this technology, then I think I'm ok with it. The problem seems to lie with the lack of more information in the web with regards to the use of this technology in growing kois as such forum like this would be of much help. I have heard some kois being groomed for koi show in japan are intentionally placed in pond with oxygen concentrator. I am not sure if this is true though and if true for what intended purposes.



  • cookcpucookcpu March 2012
    Posts: 462
    http://www.healthoxygen.com/airsep-newlife-intensity-10lpm-sf-om-ltot-oxygen-concentrator.html

    Some of the Singapore koikichi use the above model.

    I was told that the supplier do offer maintenance contract for the OC.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu, i try answer your questions. IMO,
    1. Fish expose to good water condition including higher DO pond tend to have trouble if move to other pond. It will stress during certain period of time but will adap to new environment. Unless the new environment too extreme. IMO, most fish will adapt without any problem.

    2. Airpump and BS do surely increase DO but we have to remember that O2 in the air only 21% while OC can produce until 99% pure O2.

    3. Using venturi will help a lot in dissolving gass to water, also help reduce the backpressure to the unit either hiblow or OC. The only weak point in venturi is it need powerful pump and also the venturi itself have a backpressure issue. Another option is using needle wheel pump which is use in protein skimmer for marine fish, it have good dissolving air and low wattage. I currently experimenting my new protein skimmer using NW. My previous injector PS also have been posted here, if i am no mistaken. I also experimenting in oxygen saturator, which principle is to use and reuse pure oxygen.

    4. Is there a danger of over saturation of oxygen?
    It is also an issue that bother me previously. But brother david convince me that no such problem is happening to his pond and koi. And increasing DO level will sure more appetite, reduce stress especially in heavy populated pond, and at night in pond which have a lot of algae. This will prevent. The pH and O2 swing.

    Regards,
    Harry
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Thank you for your comment.

    Your suggestion of the needle wheel pump to better dissolve the oxygen to the water is a great idea. Does that mean that connecting the OC to the needle wheel pump will dissolve the oxygen much better in the water compared to just using an airstone where some of the oxygen bubble will just rise up and be wasted?

    Is there a possibility of gas bubble disease if oxygen bubbles are so small if needle wheel pump is used? Where would be the best place to place the OC connected to the needle wheel pump? Inside the filter chamber or directly to the pond?

    With regards to using an oxygen saturator along with a OC, do you think this willbe even more efficient in dissolving the oxygen in the water compared to using the needle wheel pump

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-15 08:23:51 am
  • boykoiboykoi March 2012
    Posts: 186
    bro HDCU,

    to my opinion,toshi is right,once you used it in your normal pond set-up its advisable not to stop it.in just my view,it would be better if youd use this just as back-up or if you have a smaller tank for kois that are sick,or for growouts. Nissais and bigger kois have issues with adjusting different levels of oxygen and are most likely gets sick about this than tosais.

    IMHO,it would be better to let your bakki and pond aeration drive your desired oxygen levels than a dedicated concentrator for this.ive inquired bout this before and this devices are technical stuff,even if theyd gave 1 to me its still a headache to get it serviced and not to mention power consumption.it consumes power equivalent to 5 150lpm blowers, and so id prefer to have more blowers than a concentrator. My experience with my bakki also tells me that not only does it help aeration and oxygen levels but lowering down temperatures 2 deg c than the normal temp and keeps nitrates non existent. So to conclude, you may just get more bang for your bucks to get a right setup of bakki showers and several aerators for your set-up than a concentrator..just my opinion
    Post edited by boykoi at 2012-03-15 08:32:18 pm
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro boykoi,

    Thank you for the comments.
    I realize just now that 500watts of OC can probably power up 2 additional 5800GPH pump that can increase now pond turnover to 4x which will greatly improve water quality also.

    Question now would be would OC with 2x turnover now be better than increase turnover to 4x turnover without OC?
  • boykoiboykoi March 2012
    Posts: 186
    Bro HDCU,

    a lot has been said about water turned over,one thing i remembered the sifus sharing was, water turnover may have direct implications on higher OC because pond water goes through the filters faster thus are processed thoroughly. but when you have a higher turnover rates,you have to have at least half the tonnage of your filter vs to your pond so that the bio filters may work properly,rather than the usual 30 pct filter vs pond tonnage.

    as i was saying, you could do a lot more with 500watts than just a single machine. either more aerators or pumps will thoroughly help in more ways than just having a higher OC levels.
  • KaajKaaj March 2012
    Posts: 376
    "I realize just now that 500watts of OC can probably power up 2 additional 5800GPH pump that can increase now pond turnover to 4x which will greatly improve water quality also".

    Bro HDCU,
    I would like to question the logic in having a TOR 4xper hour. If your waste does not settle in your filter chambers, how will the compounds be broken down?
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Kaaj,

    In my present smaller pond setup which is presently crowded, I still feed from 8 to 12 times in a 24 hour cycle and still get away with very clean water with zero ammonia, nitrite
    And nitrate level of 25 and below with TDS never reaching 100. . I have consistently monitored my water(tds, ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate)as i have increaes feed whenever i feel size of koi has increased as well in size. To maintain my consistent water quality, I had to increase a corresponding filtration which involve additional filters, pump and turnover and increased Aeration and water change. Increased turnover has always been in line with an increase of filter medium to keep pace with koi growth and improve and maintain the skin quality of the inhabitants. I now have reached a point that turnover is now 5x to 6x with a 15 to 20 percent turnover depending on feed times.

    It has already become taxing to maintain consistent water quality. This is the reason why I am demolishing this old setup to give way to a 16 ton pond only with 2 x 2.5 ton japanese filter medium and 2 modules of bakki showers. Eventually, I predict that this would not even be enough as koi hobby is addictive as such I am trying to figure out to increase now already the turnover with a corresponding additional increase in filters and pump versus just putting an OC which will cost more or less the same including running cost. I know it could be overkill now but in a year or two, it might not be. Hopefully not though.

    Now going back to your question, unlike others i don't use Japanese Matt in this pond(I have another pond though that uses Japanese Matt), but use filters of very high surface area like siporax pond rings, sponge filters, and biobAlls all protected with wool sieves that are washed everyday. Why siporax? Because of BH is not available here while siporax claims to be able to help remove dissolve organic compounds that Japanese Matt cannot even at high turnover rate. With such high surface area filters, I cannot afford that waste settle much as to block the filters as such the need for higher turnover and much cleaner filter chambers. Bio chambers only purpose is to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, and to some degree dissolve Organics. Solid waste should be flushed out as quick as possible to avoid possible bad bacteria or E. Colin from multiplying out of control in a small pond with many inhabitants.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-16 03:12:44 am
  • koilvrkoilvr March 2012
    Posts: 59
    bro HDCu, there's this method called Low Head Oxygenation or LHO that involves the use of OC unit to increase DO level in water. You might want to google it.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,
    NW is used to chop the bubble to smaller bubble which increase the amount of oxygen to be dissolved. Using any mean of aeration media such as airstone, air disk diffuser, or black hose will give a back pressure to your unit. And OC pressure rate, i don't think you can put deeper. NW or venturi surely help to prevent back pressure, your unit will work less harder, thus make your equipment either or hiblow las longer. Using venturi is better than NW in dissolving gas to water.

    I usually put air bubble before pump chamber, so water with high dissolved oxygen will be spread to pond in evenly manner better than if you just put in one spot. I rarely put bubble in pond due to aesthetic reason. How to enjoy koi if your water is "boiling". Turning on and off you aeration equipment is possibble but sometime it is pain in the a**. I do sometimes use bubble only mean to set a flow in certain spot/blank spot. Also some China brand hiblow, have pressure issue at deeper water.

    I ask sifu david on one occasion about gas bubble disease, and he said he is not having problem with it. And for safety precaution, you may need to use DO meter to measure the DO level.

    One of my concern as pond builder to offer my client using a OC is due to its price and wattage consumption. Using BS also may increase DO and lower temp, but it also need big and powerful pump for good result. And it can lower a nitrate level but cannot totally remove the nitrate. This make me think about creating a device that can improve higher DO and with less wattage consumption.

    Few thing about DO and bubble are :
    1. Smaller bubble is better
    2. Higher retention time/the longer the bubble stay at water column is better
    3. Oxygen is better dissolved in lower temp and lower altitude.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Can you explain how is it that Venturi is better in dissolving gas to water when you said that that needle wheel pump produces smaller bubbles?

    Also, there is also a consensus that in many deeper ponds, the dissolved oxygen in the deepest part has the lowest DO. Is this problem because of lower filter turnover or lack of proper mixing of pond water. In case you don't put direct aeration in the pond doesn't this reduce the turbulence and mixing rate of the pond water?
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    An interesting consideration you have there but I could not resist…hehehe.

    Oxygen super saturation (assuming that is what you are trying to achieve) can be toxic to many organisms including to your koi. With 4 to 5 units of 60lpm air pumps and an OC, I think you can achieved super saturation of O2 in your water quite easily.

    From what I know….high oxygen concentration can lead to high levels of toxic reactive oxygen radicals ….such as hyperoxide, hydroxyl radical OH++, nitric oxide and many others. These radicals react and change the nature of enzymes in cells, meddling with normal koi metabolism. I am sure you have researched into it that under supersaturated conditions, oxygen can "come out" of solution inside tissues forming micro bubbles inside fish, which lead to "Gas Bubble Disease". Having said this….the exact mechanism underlying oxygen toxicity central nervous system is not known, but the free radical theory appears to be the most likely explanation…..

    If you read into the equilibrium thermodynamics……it dictates that an extremely small proportion of oxygen in aqueous solution become radicals. Therefore, higher levels of oxygen would seem to result in higher levels of radicals. Oxygen radicals are extremely destructive to biological systems. You can Google for superoxide and how this superoxide is quite biological toxic.

    What you need to consider in your aeration system is such that at any one time…..your DO saturation level is not less than 80% and as close to the saturation level possible under a given temperature, atmospheric pressure, salinity and pH situation. This is widely accepted as a healthy aquatic environment. Yes…. we do not want a hyperoxia or a hypoxia in our fish pond unlike in the ocean…there is O2 super saturation occurring at the upper layer. The point is that our pond is not the ocean. IMHO it is best if we can mimic it to be like riverine conditions. It is a tall order I know in a close recirculation system….hehehe.

    Are you thinking of having high O2 can lower the CO2 concentration in the body of water?

    Hyperventilation cannot in a given volume of water at a set temperature, salinity and atmospheric pressure to hold a maximum amount of oxygen beyond it saturation level. To go beyond the saturation level…..like super saturation….which you have considered is by forcing oxygen into the water under pressure and IMO using a strong return water pump that can generate at least 1 bar of pressure at a venturi device would be great. I have one purchased and install at slightly below mid depth of my pond. I can control the amount of air it draws down and the bubbles it ejected are really very fine indeed.

    BTW….A dissolved oxygen level by itself isn't really going to tell you if your water is supersaturated. You would need several other variables like barometric pressure and temp. To calculate the total dissolved gas pressure can be a nightmare as the math equation is scary. To circumvent this….I have purchased an electronic meter that read to that effect. It reads quite near to what I have estimated it will be…..i.e. near to saturation level for my pond aeration needs.

    I like the air pumps venting air through the air stones and tubes. It adds drama and with underwater lighting it can be quite awe and serene to watch the koi swimming in the night. However, with this air delivery system via piping network embedded in the pond wall…..interstitial condensation inside the air pipes can happen and you will need to purge it.

    Cheers
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur March 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,
    Venturi using pressure to dissolved gas into water, and it can pushed the air bubble to 1,5m without no problem. While using NW can only aerated to max 1m, although you can tweak it using plumbing.
    By putting the aeration before pump chamber, and your pond pump can distributed the oxygenated water to your pond better, instead of put aeration diffuser in one spot.
    You can enjoy your fish swimming gracefully in like floating, and what is better is that you will immediately notice if something happen to your fish, ie got scratched.

    You can try to watch sifu david channel on youtube, that an example of a very good koi pond and koi keeping skill and equipment.

    Regards,
    Harry
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • ShukriShukri March 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    I have an OC and 4 air pumps all right........humm! So far so good! But I will check out the DO reading whether saturated or not....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    Assuming you are feeding on an average of 10 times per day. Assuming the total feed will be about 1kg and the feed span over a time period of ten hours and as your koi will eventually grow bigger in size......your feed may reach 1.5kg per day over the same time period.

    May I know how you have rationalized that a turnover rate of 2x is appropriate?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    First of all, the minimum span interval per feed that I do is 2 hours because that is the minimum time that the kois are able to fully digest at normal temperatures. When I say 10 x, it will be 6 times from 6 pm to 6 am and 4 times from 6am to 6 pm. I feed more at night because they are more active since water temp is lower at night. Yes, they do rest and some kois may eat less in some intervals. Yes you have to provide night light or else the kois will not be able to see at night

    I have noticed that by eating many times but in just few pellets, they stay more active and there is much less parking or indigestion brought about by too much eating in a few big serving. The growth rate is better as well. Their is also much less stress among the kois. They do not fight for the pellets anymore as well. Even the smaller kois have their chances while the big eaters are able to bulk faster without suffering from big stomach.

    Now since the kois are like constantly eating they are also constantly pooing but only a little as well. However, because of a faster turnover, my pond water always stay not only very clear even after every feeding while water parameters stay constant as long as trickle water constantly go in. It is imperative that in multiple times feeding, water quality and temperature should be monitored carefully. A drop in water quality or temperature not in the ideal range and the kois will skip meal and you will see more and more floating uneaten pellets which can get spoil if it get soaked in the water for a long time. An adequate filter that can process the ammonia, nitrite and organic waste as quick as possible before the next feeding is thus very important.

    When I said 2x would be appropriate compared to my present setup which is 5x, this is because In my new setup the ratio of koi size per water volume is much less. My 2x setup will be equivalent to six ERIC filter three setup plus two bakki showers more than enough for 3kg of koi feed a day.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    Let us assume the pond systemis in a steady state of flow. Please allow me to provide an over simplication of the overall biological treatment that will most likely going to be….

    You feed 3kg of foods over a span of 24 hours. Out of this 3kg of food, approximately 4% of it will be turned into metabolic ammonia. This in turns will be nitrified to nitrite, nitrate, DOC, phosphorous and etc…..

    Thus…..

    3kg x 4% = 120 grams
    Your proposed pond volume is 16m3 = 16,000 liters.
    Therefore… (120 x 1000)/16,000 = 7.5mg/l = 7.5 ppm of metabolic ammonia a day to start with.

    In one hour….. You will have an environment of 7.5/24 = 0.315 mg/l of metabolic ammonia.

    Pond turnover = 2x

    Therefore the residual metabolic ammonia remaining in the pond in an hour will be 0.315/2 = 0.15625 mg/l

    I am not sure at what pH value you would normally maintain…..

    My readings to date direct me to an ammonia NH3-N value of 0.1mg/l at pH 8 at temperature of say around 25 C will be still acceptable for a temporary exposure and will most unlikely to cause permanent damage to the koi. I think some degree of stress is inevitable to be experienced by the koi at this level under the given pH condition.

    Your system has exceeded.

    Ideally it should read zero. However, based on my 4 months of studies in my own pond….in the real world of an average pond size to a small pond size, it is unlikely we can achieved zero level if there is feed….

    My 10 tonnes pond records a range of values from 0.03mg/l to 0.05mg/l of free ammonia. There will always be some residual as the fish continuous to poo and urine throughout the day.

    As long as there is ammonia in the pond….there is also some nitrification going on there. Matters can get even slightly more complicated as we take nitrite (N02-N) into the equation.

    May I know…what type of test kit you use? I use Hach portable colorimeter DR/890 to do my tests. For ammonia reading I carried out salicyate type test with the said equipment.
    From your descriptions..... of your lower nitrate level recorded…..my conclusion that this is possible…. if in your bio-filter those small particulates and particles accumulated in your system have been used to fuel the breakdown of the nitrification process formed NO3 to nitrogen gas (N2) else your water change regime is good.

    Let’s us assume your bakki shower (8000gph) performed to specification and if you have another piping network to your 2 x 2.5m3 vertical filter media for filtration needs….is it not your turn over will be approximately 3x per hr assuming BS need double flow rate to complete the nitrification process?

    On your retention time for your 2 x 2.5m3 filter media. I estimated your retention time to be about 7 min which IMO is narrow. Not going to be that efficient especially when you have a high feeding load and frequency.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro HarryYew,

    Thank you for dissecting the science of pond filtration which is something I am interested.
    The new pond design was based on a mock up scale of one of my pond present setup of which I presently feed the kois a total of 200 to 350 grams per day (6 to 10 x feeding for just 7 kois. I use sera tester and I always achieve a constant actual ammonia level of .009 based on ph of 7.3 to 7.5. And neglible nitrite reading. Nitrate has always been at 20 to 25. This small pond over time, I had to increase filter surface area as well as pond turnover and rate of water change just to maintain constant water parameter.

    When I said the new pond can take upto 3kg of feed a day and maintain water parameters, I computed the 7 kois to triple in volume weight in a few years. Assuming that they would continue their feed rate as compared to their size which is highly unlikely that would result in 1kg of feed a day. But of course, I would probably limit the number of kois to a total weight of 120 kg equivalent to just 6 to 7 jumbos or upto 15 70cm kois as this is what i believe my new filters setup can take while maintaining the same water parameters.

    Going back to your formulation since my ph is at 7.3 to 7.5 , the real toxic ammonia level would instead be 0.03 mg/l per hour that the filters needs to clean up. While it is true that 7min may be fast, however one has to consider the surface area also of the filters as well. Based on my computation, the new pond will contain an aerated seive with automatic drain sump pond which will activate to drain the solid poo before it gets accumated enough to increase ammonia level. The next defense would be a module of 14 brushes per the two filter sets. This would be cleaned manually every other day. Next would contained 7 Japanese matts PER filter module arrange in vertical setup like Eric system and it will be heavily aerated to increase nitrification activity. The two pumps 5600gph each connected to individual bottom drain will then pick up the water to push to the bakki shower where siporax filters will be place. As there is height pressure loss,each pump will then be actually pumping 4200gph or total of 8400 gph equivalent to 31,920 liters or 2x turnover. I will be putting there 40 liters of siporax pond rings in each bakki shower filters sets or total of 80 liters. According to sera, their siporax pond bio media has the highest surface filter for bacteria compared to size and can even reduce also nitrate levels. A liter of siporax pond filter is sufficient for purification of 1000 liters pond water with 20 pond fish of 10cm length each or a comparable stock( representing 1.5kg of fish fed with up to 40g of high quality food per day) and release it from organic pollution in long terms. So since the bakki can easily handle 80 liters of siporax that would translate to 80 x 40 grams of fish food or 3.2 kg of feed per day or 80 x 1.5 kg of fish equivalent to total weight of 120kg of fish.


    To remove the hormones, dissolved Organics, phosphate, nitrate, etc, water change of course would continue. The rate would depend on the rate and amount of feed per day.

    Of course, I cannot say for certain my computations are correct as such I am still open to the opinions of others here.


    :)
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-22 03:32:54 pm
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCU,

    How much and how often do you do a water change ? Good work on the water parameters esp the nitrate with such high feeding .

    On the high DO created by OC , in a book Koi Medicine by Lance Jepson , MA VetMB CBiol MSB MRCVS , he mentioned there is reduction in count of red blood cells during winter, likely due to combination of lower metabolic rate and higher DO in colder water. So it is possible for a koi in OC supplied pond to adapt to high DO, by having lower red blood cells count, since O2 is in abundance , as such the koi will get in trouble when the DO is not so high in non OC pond ( if change is not gradual like the seasons.)

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    You are most welcome.

    I read you have your heart set on your understanding......hhehehe... :-D

    I think I have not explained well. Please allow me to try again.

    1) I am not referring to your filter media capacity as yet.

    2) I am referring to the appropriate flow rate, retention time and in a way the maximum feed rates that your system will be able to handle.

    3) The ammonia concentration in a steady state flow under a given condition.

    4) The reliability of your testing readings.

    Please allow me to start again....

    a) Total feed = 3,000 grams
    b) 4% of the feed will be converted to metabolic ammonia..... unionized ammonia.
    c) pond volume = 16m3 = 16,000 liters
    d) Turnover = 2x

    Unionized ammonia (NH3-N) = 3,000 x 4% = 120 grams

    Assume steady state condition

    Concentration of free ammonia per hour = (120 x1000)/(16,000 x 24) = 0.3125 mg/l

    OR

    The amount of free ammonia present in the pond per hour = (120 x1000)/24 = 5000mg/hr

    In is natural that in a good design consideration....we want to have the entire pond volume be able to remove this 5000mg of free ammonia as quickly as possible....like instantaneously but in reality this is not going to be the situation.

    Now...let us assume your filter media allowance can handle the removal of the ionized ammonia and free in a single pass. Let us just review the residual amount of free ammonia at a given time frame.

    Thus....in order for you to be able to remove this 5,000mg of free ammonia in an hour, your flow rate or turnover is 16m3/hr. Since you allow for turnover of 2x per hour....you will be removing 5000 mg/l of free ammonia every 1/2 hour. It is a good turnover if we check this allow flow rate against the entire pond concentration of 5,000 mg/l been moved to the filtration chambers.

    However, looking from the perspective of tiny science......in every 1/2 hr situation your koi is exposed to a concentration of 5,000/16,000 = 0.3125 mg/l.

    This value far exceed the temporary acceptable value of 0.1 mg/l I have quoted.This value of 0.1mg/l is not the definitive value to follow religiously and/or neither it should be taken as the absolute value. It is a value I have read and based on my own studies in my own pond and koi where there is no observed detrimental ill effect to my koi.


    In order for your pond system to be forgiving and/or flexible....you perhaps would like to design such that....in a steady state condition, the concentration is well below the 0.1 mg/l...even better below 0.02 mg/l at anytime.

    This can only be acieved in your given situation by the following:

    1) Increase your pond volume to say 32m3. i.e. your new concentration = 5,000/32,000 = 0.156 mg/l/hr

    Turnover 2x...= 0.156/2 = 0.078mg/l

    2) Keep your 16m3 volume as allow and increase your turnover to 4x

    your concentration = 0.3125/4 = 0.078mg/l

    3) Reduce your feed to 1.5kg

    your free ammonia concentration will be half....= 0.15625mg/l
    Turnover 2x = 0.15625/2 = 0.078 mg/l
    If turnover 3x = 0.15625/3 = 0.052mg/l

    To me.....1kg of feed for 9 koi seem a lot. Don't know in reality...as many of my koi has not reached the 70cm mark. I feed about 300 grams per day and they seem satisfy and happy. In between feed I find they either resting or busy grazing the walls and floor of the pond

    To summarize....you need to review the residual value at any give time frame.

    The symptoms you have described in your post of your koi...like parking, refusing to eat and not surfacing are signs of high ammonia concentration in that instance. I have on one occasion a brief encountered during CNY. The male koi skin even turns from pure white to a tinge of yellow. Gosh.....it could also be due to the colour enhancing food or a combination. Now...my male koi are showing good white again but not yet snow white. hehehe.......

    IMHO...the Sera test kit for NH4+/NH3 that you are using does not give you a good representation of your free ammonia readings. If you refer to the standard chart they enclosed, it lacks one other important parameter, i.e. temperature to provide the proper conversion of free ammonia or unionized ammonia from the total ammonium value NH4.

    If your pond temperature is around 28 C, then if your NH4 read 0.5mg/l, you can easily expect the free ammonia to be somewhere around 0.03mg/l at pH 7.5. The Sera test kit reading goes in an increment of 0.5mg/l if I am not mistaken and colour judging to determine the appropriate range is required. To me.....I think it is good enough for general monitoring but not when precision is required.

    My understanding to-date there is no conclusive value the safe level of free ammonia a koi can tahan but from literature..it gravitates to 0.02mg/l.


    hmm....in your case....everything you are introducing are "SUPER" and I have to agree that continuous and vigilant water monitoring and control is inevitably required.

    Let say you accept my explanations and hypothesis of the most likely scenario of your eventual pond condition will be......I think your filtration system and sedimentation control is going to be an uphill task.....if engineering specification is follows.

    However....I personally feel that if you are going to redesign your system, design it such that you will not be enslaved by your own design, constraints you have introduced. It is a tall order but judging from your knowledge....I don't think that is an impossible task for you.

    Happy koing and looking forward to see your new pond system in operation and display.


    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro lauts,

    In my small pond setup, I started with 7 percent water change at 100 grams 0f food per day. Now it's 20 percent at 350 grams per day to maintain the same water parameters. If I do not make any water change for a week despite heavy feeding, ammonia and nitrite will just increase very slightly but nitrate, tds and dissolve Organics will continue to go inch up. I have tested tds after a week without water change and it reached 180 in a week without water change and nitrate reaches 70. At that water quality level, I noticed that the kois became more sluggish and their appetite was reduced.

  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Thank you for your input.

    I have said in my previous post that I feel the ponds limit is 3kg per day but I would think that in reality if I don't overstock and stick to my plan maximum feed will just be 1.5kg per day.

    While I don't dispute the amount of ammonia as compared to food at 4 percent, the math I believe is inaccurate.

    Assuming I start with a pond with 0 ammonia reading and I feed 150 grams on the first feeding cycle. It does not follow that 150 grams of food eaten will release immediately 4 percent ammonia to the pond unless of course when kois are stressed much after eating. Ammonia is release gradually within a two to three hour period. In the meantime, the pump and turnover is continually running while the filter is continuously converting the ammonia to nitrite to harmless nitrate. The bakki shower will help degass some of the ammonia while good bacteria in the circulated water itself and on the pond walls are helping in the nitrification of the released ammonia. If the poo are eliminated or flushed away from the settlement chamber before it releases more ammonia, then the bio load is even less. This is why continuous filter running is imperative after eating and why some koi hobbyist with small matured ponds with much smaller well maintained filters are able to feed a few times but at big servings and still they claim good water parameters when it comes to ammonia and nitrite readings.

    Heavy frequent feeding is not new to kois. When these kois are placed in mud ponds, they do just that. Breeders place many of their kois in mud pond to avail of the abundance of food, the large expanse of water and the water quality, low tds to achieve superb growth in just a few months. I don't see any reason why we cannot simulate to some degree the conditions in mud pond in our concrete pond.

    You are correct in saying that maintaing the filters daily will be tedious. However, I do believe it will be much less work compared to my present setup. Like ERIC filters, filters need to be flushed everyday even though autoflush will be placed. it will take just a 5 to 10 minutes to make the filter like new according to Sir Peter Waddington. I don't think my maid will complain about the work. Hehe.

    :-D
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-23 02:52:17 am
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu

    How many % bodyweight feed is the 100 and 350g equals to ? 20% waterchange daily , that's a lot .

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro lauts,

    I don't really know the exact weight of 6 19 to 20 inch wide body kois but At 2 kilos each that would total 12 kilos as such 350 grams equates to near 3 percent body weight.

    Assuming that they reach jumbo size of 32 inches, each koi would reach 9 kilos or a total of 54 kilos. If they continue to eat at 3 percent of body weight then they would need 1.6 kilos a day. At 2 percent, that would still be 1 kilo.

  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    Hehehe…….

    Technically speaking of course…..your pond ammonia system will not be in a steady state. If we are to compute in the unsteady state…..the math will be even more alarming and scary. That is why I said assume it to be in the steady state to simplify thing.

    Let’s review this from this perspective……

    The 3 kg or 1.5kg of foods will eventually produce the 4% metabolic un-ionized ammonia. For this…. we are in agreement. If there is no flow rate or turnover to move the entire pond volume after 24 hours, this 4% un-ionized ammonia will be present in the pond.

    You and me don’t know when the koi will poo and urine and at what time and at what rates in a given instance in time but we roughly know for a certain weight of food given….we both can expect 4% of metabolic ammonia. The total ammonia will be higher.

    Ammonia is the principle metabolic waste product and is considered the 2nd most important water parameter to watch after the O2. This ammonia is produced primary from the fish metabolism. Ammonia is a by product of protein metabolism and is actually excreted across the gill membranes. Only a small portion is from the urine. Correct me if I have erred.

    When I assume the computation to be in a steady state….I merely implied that the ammonia in the system, the partial derivative with respect to time is zero. It is a general situation than dynamic equilibrium. Of course steady state is not achieved until some time has elapsed after the system jalan. You have quoted a transient state in your example…. unless you do not recognize a dynamic equilibrium can occur….. In another words…the effects of transients are no longer important.

    Image when you switch on the electrical switch of your house, a flow of electricity run through your wiring circuit…right?…. and when the electrons flow are completed, you have light and the circuit can be said to be in a steady state and you get light continuously until you turned off the electrical switch.

    In my computation I have assumed a steady state for an overall simplification to a more complex set of equations. It is averaging the 4% output of metabolic ammonia right across the given 24 hours time frame. You feeding regime is like round the clock and a steady state is a reasonable assumption to make in that given scenario.

    Now….that is the mathematical computation I have put forward to explain a likely scenario of a situation. I have actually verified that this type of state of assumption and computation is actually happening in my pond. It is a realistic observation and a good engineering way to approach a problem.

    A bigger pond size will response better (i.e. change in water parameters) and is more forgiving than a smaller or average pond. This is possible mainly due to the magic of “dilution”.

    In the event you still cannot accept the above….hehehe…then an unsteady state condition need to be reviewed. This is when you start to consider instantaneous spikes at regular interval along with your feeding interval. That lot of 4% of metabolic output need to be treated in that given time frame.

    Okok…by now you might be questioning…in that case why my koi is not experiencing this ammonia toxicity that I have been computing. The answer is that…..your lower pH value in your given temperature allows for the higher total ammonia to ensure that the free ammonia does not exceed the safe value (0.02ppm). Now if you don’t believe me….you try to pump your pH to 8.2 or 8.3 and you observe your koi whether they will go into stress and if you experiment further maintain this pH for a month and you see whether your koi gills show sign of damage and disease start to set in or not. Hehehe….

    How much is your proposed BS will be degassing the ammonia? Your statement confirms uncertainty in your assumption. The science behind BS is very interesting but I have yet to explore/understand it with good engineering understanding. Is it some sort of aerobic cum anoxic filtration system? Will you be using the bakki house media proposed by the originator or an alternative material? I have seen how my koi dealer run his BS……the clarity of the water does not impressed me and it is like walking into a heavy industrial environment. The maintenance routine he has to undertake to clean the sedimentation or particulates off is easily 6 times more than my design system. Having said this….I respect the BS and it is a very interesting science behind it for a given footprint of space.

    Now…if you have no space constraint perhaps…you should consider anoxic filtration system that is gaining popularity and it converts ammonia straight to nitrogen. There will be less kepala pusing of nitrite and especially nitrate to watch out and maintain.

    We can start to pull small pieces of the many biological activities that are happening in our pond environment. The biological activities are present not necessary at the filtration chambers. However, in any design, you have to have to set an allowable safety of factor. In our discussions so far….the factor of safety is ONE. Any shift in any of your inputs or assumptions will have a great shift in the equilibrium system.

    One of these days, you and I should go any visit these small matured ponds with much smaller well maintained filters are able to feed a few times but big serving and claim good water parameters when it comes to ammonia and nitrite readings. I will bring along all my testing equipment to verify. May be they have discovered a secret method that both of us don’t know yet and they have been silently enjoying it. hehehe….

    Before I design and construct my pond, I too have visited my friend pond. A simple pond setup and his koi are in good health and big too. He has not to date experience any disease that he has mentioned to me. The only bad experience he had had was when there was an electrical outage and there was no backup electricity supply resulting in all his 9 jumbo koi go bye bye…..So….in my system, I have a risk management preventive system to minimize that scenario. Luckily I have it…to date I have experienced 2 power interruptions for hours. Hehehe….

    Don’t get me wrong…I am not against heavy feeding. We can feed as much as we want and as long as the health of the koi is not put into a compromise situation in our desire to see rapid growth and fine tuning the body profile to taste and preference.

    Hmmm…..mud pond. I don’t have any exposure to it yet but I can imagine it is big, muddy with minerals but but the volume of water there is large too….so it can handle the heavy metabolic ammonia load unlike in the current discussions we cannot handle the residual metabolic ammonia produce that is compromising the water quality and the health of the koi. I think we need to focus on this.

    You have a TDS meter…may I know what make is it? What is your understanding of an acceptable TDS level in a recirculation pond? Have you measured your specific conductance of your water in your pond? I was informed the SP conductivity of 200 to 300 is about the river conductivity value one can expect from a riverine environment. Mine is in that region.

    On the maintenance programme in my pond….My is near to 100% automated but not quite yet. Maintenance I need on a weekly basis is to clear off those sludge and debris accumulated from the skimmer outlet. Other than that I only have to clean my sedimentation chamber about 2 months once and the J-mat filter media 6 month once. I have an opportunity to inspect the 1st J mat chamber last week (i.e. 4moths in operation) and the accumulated dirt is actually relatively small to warrant a complete clean. So I test to clean it complete and reinsert all the Jmat modules and read my ammonia and nitrite the following day….it read well within the acceptable range.

    I am not familiar with the ERIK filter but I will research on it later. Is his filtration been proven to be one of the best commercially available now that can handle such high feeding programme you are doing? Do you have the contact of the Malaysia distributor or you have to order from UK direct for the system? On his auto-flush feature, does the system come with a failed safe feature in the event his automated valve malfunction….will it drain your pond dry?

    It is good to have a maid to do the routine work….My maid only help me to enjoy viewing my koi.

    It is nice having the discussions with you. I would like to see some pictures of your current smaller pond setup which you are running and intend to remodel it to a larger scale.

    Cheers.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    There is no doubt that a bigger pond size will respond better in handling ammonia spikes because of the law of water dillution. My dealer said that in reviewing my design to even reduce the filter space to give way for more pond size for the kois to get more exercise or else they would grow fat instead of lengthwise. Hehe. He even said 2x turnover is already excessive and already a waste of power cost. However, he did say that one can never go wrong with excessive filtration as this would come handy in giving a better water quality in the future. Because of space constraints, 16 tons is now the maximumum I can build.

    Going back to ERIC system. This system is nothing new as sifu David has said. It is just based on vertical flow dynamics instead of up and down filters and follows the rule one bottom drain, one filterset,one pump. Vertical long path filtration is based on many waste water treatment. There is no auto flush in the ERIC system but it can it installed. My new pond design is just based on the ERIC concept plus bakki shower. Both are proven and have their particular use, although I do believe that only system can also be effective. In the event that I need to increase turnover to 4x, I will separate the two system. With regards to the auto flush system that I will DIY, it will be based on diagonal stainless seive to filter out first the poo. Water level sensors will be place after the seive. Once the seive gets block enough that water level after the seive goes down, an air curtain plus another pump will activate to backflush and clean the seive. Another drain pump will activate for a few seconds sucking out the dirt in the small settlement chamber. The stainless seive needs to be cleaned manually after some time though. If one fails, an alarm will be triggered. All pumps will be protected by a backup generator in the event of power failure.

    I am presently using Hanna PH/ec/tds meter model HI 98129 with a calibration certificate. It is a waterproof and the most durable pen I have used so far as a hobbyist and in business. As I am a believer of MIke Snaden, I try to maintain a tds of not more than 100 despite heavy feeding, conductivity is around 200.

    With regards to the media I am presently using and will be using for my bakki shower, it is called siporax. This media is used in many fresh and marine aquarium because of it is very light weight, has the highest surface area. If you read my above post I will be using 80 liters of this media good enough for 3 kg or 120 kg kois.

    Personally, I don't think I am over feeding my kois. 30 to 35 grams per serving is not a buffet for 6 big Nisais and a growing tosai. They don't suffer from pop eye nor indigestion nor pot belly. They have continued growing both in length and girth while their beni has even become more intense while shiroji and shine is good. Whether it is unhealthy to give smaller quantity feeds at more intervals versus sticking to the classic 2 to 4 x is something that is debatable.

    I will post the new pond design which I intend to start this April. :)
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    May I know your rationale to maintain a tds of not more than 100 despite heavy feeding, conductivity is around 200?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I find that tosais and Nisai grow best and faster with soft water. My source water is around 72 tds and my nitrate is around the 20 ppm range. The rest I assume would be phosphate and dissolved Organic compund. If one goes about constant heavy feeding without enough water change water tds will continue to rise slowly as phosphate, nitrate, dissolved Organics compounds increases. Without enough UV light, the water becomes cloudy and soon water will turn green. Once algae exist in the pond they eat up the nitrate, phosphate and dissolved Organics and tds goes down again.

    I find that one can dispense with UV as long as a pond only gets a few hours of sunlight a day and that nutrients needed by algae to propagate is low.

    If there is high dissolved Organics on the water, the ORP goes down well which results inapoor water quality.

    With better water quality, the shine and color of the kois are much better, the kois are not lethargic, the appetite are better and chances of disease is less and the kois grow faster.

    By maintaining my base of 100 tds, I am able to monitor the real water quality consistently. It will tell me when and how much water I need to change, how many fish i can stock and how many food i can give presently and in the future.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-25 11:37:55 pm
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    ......so you consider koi as a low pH fish?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    In my belief and in my experience, koi can survive from 6.5 to 8.5 ph but I prefer range of 7.2 to 7.5. in some of my kois they seem to develop secondary hi if PH falls below 7 for a long time.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-26 12:17:15 am
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Thank you bro HDCu for your feedback.

    Hehehe..... You did not provide a direct answer. Ok.

    .........today genetically engineered koi don't have a natural habitats. Correct? If we look back in time where koi were introduced into the Japanese paddy field, river streams, mud ponds and lakes.... Tell me what is your understanding the likely TDS levels will be for each of the highlighted environments.

    Do you think the internal body of a koi is most likely to be more alkanity base than an acidic base?
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Japanese nishikigois were originally placed in Japanese mud rice ponds in the mountains of yamAkoshi as a source of food for the hungry farmers during winter time when there was no abundance of food. Their source of water were melting snow that had low mineral content. In fact the mud ponds there are devoid of minerals with low tds that only rice can grow. I suspect the lack of predators and lack of minerals in the water may have resulted in a genetic anomaly whereby the carp developed attractive colors. The Japanese rice farmers took these genetic anomaly and bred them to have better colors and size. However, these nishikigois became less hardy than their riverine cousins, a price to pay to achieve higher and higher quality. Today, a hobbyist know that once you place a high quality koi in a less than ideal water condition for a long time, their quality will deteriorate and they will be more prone to disease.

    Since a fish body contains and regulate water as well, the ph affects their development.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-26 01:12:52 am
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Like that ar.......let's look at the present then....

    So....in today man made or natural mud ponds, what do you think the TDS level likely to be then?
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    In general, If we are talking about Japanese mud pond in today's setting the tds would still be the same as before which is very low. There are exceptions where some mud ponds have higher tds and different mineral content that is good for developing sumi.

    I have no idea with regards to other man made mud ponds outside Japan. Not all give the best results in terms of growth and quality.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    thanks for the feedback.

    May I know what precautions you have carried out to run your pond with such
    low TDS which I think your GH & KH will correspondingly read lower than TDS value or otherwise?

    So....what is your ORP reading, may I know?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I'm not sure if I understood what you meant by precautions of maintaining a tds of 100. Did you mean PH? Basically, to maintain a low tds without causing a ph crash will mean constant trickle of source water with ph of 7.4 , high aeration and constant removal of settled poo in the filters to control bacterial count. Higher bacterial count will produce more carbon dioxide which will lower ph and eat up remaining minerals in the water. My stone waterfall also helps in a way to buffer the ph from becoming too acidic.

    Presently my ORP meter is busted. It used to be around 180.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hmmm... So an ORP reading of 180Mv mean what? Is it merely indicate the water has oxidizing power or there are more to it? Please your understanding.

    You have mentioned that high disssolved organic compounds will provide lower ORP reading. Can you please elaborate further this....are these dissolve organic compounds posses reducing power? What are the typical chemical names of these dissolved organic compound?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    ORP reading is a direct measurement of pollution index in the water. 180 is Not really that good but not bad as well and i would aim higher but constant feeding does not help. However since I've increased filtration and turnover time and rate of water change, I suspect my ORP now must be higher if I rechecked. Higher reading at around 250 to 350 is best water quality but constant high ORP In my opinion feel that it weakens the autoimmune system of a koi. I am not concerned anymore about ORP as i now base on tds as such I don't intend to get a new ORP meter anymore.
    DOC from what Ive learned contains biodegradable dissolved organic carbons that heteroTrophic Bacteria likes to eat. Unfortunately unlike Nitrifying bacteria, some kinds of heterotrophic bacteria can be harmful to kois with a weakened immune system. As such if DOC is too high, dissolved oxygen is reduced while heterotrophic bacteria multiplies. As more heterotrophic bacteria eats up the doc, the by products is more ammonia. If there not enough nitrifying bacteria to colonize the given filter space, ammonia will continue to rise as well.

    Water change and constant flushing of settlement chamber and mechanical filter and regular cleaning of the biofilter from too much capture waste therefore keeps the DOC and bad bacteria in check.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-27 12:11:17 am
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    may I know where you get this magic range (reading at around 250 to 350Mv) is considered best water quality? Is there any scientific reseach or literature to confirm this...or this is just an opinion range given by smart alex long long time ago?

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    ORP meter were originally intended for pool and spa where the recommended reading is around 600 to 700. At this level, no bacteria or for that matter koi will survive.

    I surmised that if you bomb your pond with just the right amount of PP without killing your kois, you will get close to 400 on the orp. There are long time hobbyist such as Doc Conrad who is a proponent of PP bombing took a reading of what he considers the best water quality after a PP bomb without killing the kois. He has then written many articles about this in various forums.

    I'm not saying one should always stay at near 400 as best water quality does not mean best koi water. In fact, a little bit of algae in the pond which we always try to get rid of by using UV gives the best skin and shine for the koi. I am not a proponent of ozone, the use of PP nor the use of hydrogen peroxide, nor even the use of UV but I also don't mind constant minute amount of chlorinated water trickling in the settlement chamber also to keep the bad bacteria that usually accumulates in the settlement chamber at bay nor I don't mind increasing water change rate depending on the feed rate. That is just my belief accumulated over years like other hobbyist believe in other ways.

    To me, the danger of relying on ORP reading to maintain water quality in a koi pond is that ORP reading can be erred if not Calibrated and checked well and it is sensitive also to Ph which sometimes vary in our closed pond system.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-27 07:47:12 am
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    In relation to above post, this is a material written by Doc Conrad.


    http://www.allaboutkoi.co.uk/orp-t-34.html

    In the article, I do agree with him about the higher allowed ORP level the faster the healing time for a sick koi with ulcer. With regards to achieving higher growth rates with higher ORP levels, I'm not so sure.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-27 02:43:31 am
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    HDCu,

    There are good many articles in Yumekoi by Mike Snaden on ORP and TDS. Have a read if you have not already :) . Idea was to keep the TDS diferential to below a certain %. My source water is abt 40 while i endeavour to keep my TDS to below 80 ( not more than 50 increment) , now 74 . ORP is related to TDS but being too technical could be misleading for most. Even TDS let alone ORP is not commonly measured due to many chemicals in water esp salt.

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Thank you Bro HDCu for the info.....Let me digest it proper


    To Bro lauts,

    hehehe...

    May I know what TDS and ORP sensor type you are using?

    so....can you please share with us your understanding of the following:

    1) how can a low TDS value of a pond water (i.e. reading below 100) promote growth, good skin etc....

    2) do you know why the breeders keep the a pH value between 6.8 to 7.4. Wah!!! to the decimal. hehehe....

    3) What is the lower bound value for TDS we should observe? My understanding is that for example......deionized water has a zero TDS value.

    4) do you know why the breeder keeps their GH value low low?

    5) do you have any link to direct me to understand the koi's natural water chemistry?

    6) How is ORP related to TDS? Is there a direct correlation done to proof this?

    Cheers
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    Using TDS meter only by HM Digital no ORP meter. Do read up on the articles in Yumekoi , there was one that measures some famous mud pond and concrete pond in Momotaro etc. The few articles in Yume would be sufficient to answer all your questions and more.

    Basically if you know the source water TDS , anything increments in TDS would be coming from whatever dissolve in the pond water , this includes waste such as nitrate, DOCs, chemicals, salts etc from feed , water run off.
    Besides koi pellets and occasional bentonite clay, there is nothing else added. So increments in my pond would be most from waste. Not good hence water changes are necessary to maintain my pond water. Normally low TDS correspond to higher ORP.

    ts

  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro lauts

    I have read his articles.....interesting accounts of his observations and beliefs.

    From what I can understand from his write up..... It merely gives an account of the characteristics of the various ponds he had visited and took readings thereof. He did not elaborate further on the "Tiny Science" behind 'Why' those characteristics are the prefer parameters to be obey and follow.

    That is why I asked......Please share your understanding from your perspectives as you understand it.

    Cheers

  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro lauts

    I wish to make a correction to your statement above.

    An organic compound consist of carbon and usually in combination with other elements like O2, H, N and S. Organic compounds do not have high conductivity and is too low or nonexistence in conductivity measurement. Similarly inorganic compounds such as molecular compounds and hydrates also do not exhibit high conductivity.

    However......Inorganic compounds that is ionic, acids and bases can be measured for conductivity with certain inherent meaning.

    Cheers
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    From your questions , i gather you have read some of the articles ;-) its not about the high or low TDS , but rather the make up that drives the TDS. Even though the mud pond TDS is low, it could consist of all the important necessary minerals via natural food source , in the mud and other source not dissolved. Our TDS source could be close in reading only but differ much in content. This is the main reason i add bentonite clay to my pond water , re mineralise hoping to get close in mineral content to those mud pond in Japan ?

    ts

  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro lauts

    Thank you for your feedback.

    The salient point behind this high and low TDS is more than what we have perceived it to be a good mineralization requirement. The theory that mineralization will be consumed by the koi when the koi burrow into the mud is nothing but just a hypothetisis.....to be confirmed by research. Your view on this?

    Tell me....hehehe.....what you think will happen to the koi when it is subjected to a high TDS level environment assuming all other parameters remain constant.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Personally, I do think if the koi food contains the essential proteins, minerals and vitamins, water remineralization is unimportant unless you dont change water as bacteria eats up the minerals in the water as well over time. Bentonite main purpose is not to remineralize the water but to help remove the fines in the water for easy flushing. With lesser fines, there is less DOC in the pond and better water quality. The Refresh clay brand does not only contain a specific type of bentonite from a specific source but It also contains some of important minerals in the development of a koi that may or may not be lacking in food.

    Mud ponds that has been seeded with bentonite in japan in my opinion has four main purpose:
    1. to stop water from leaking beneath the bottom floor(waterproofing) and ground dirt from mixing with the water.
    2. to absorb harmful dissolved organic compounds like activated carbon where it can be eaten by heterotrophic bacteria
    3. To acts as a biofilter
    4. To give other food source of the koi a place to live and multiply.

    Not related to koi keeping but in business, I do pay to test often for the presence of heavy metals such as lead, mercury, cadmium, hexa chromium, and others in many raw materials from clays, extenders, water, to pigments. Some Bentonite clay and deepwell water with high alkalinity and with higher TDS may contain these minute amount of poisons which may affect the long term the development and quality of a koi.

    Presently, I filter my source tap municipal water with 1 micron filter and carbon filter and sometimes activate the reverse osmosis if necessary before entering the pond. The setup looks too much for some but when i show them the dirt, rust, etc that gets collected in such a short time, they get surprised. I cannot imagine using high tds deep well water without filtering it and guaranteeing that it is 100 percent safe for the long term development of my pets unless I test frequently the composition of the water.

    With regards to effect of higher tds, one must put in perspective and what Bro Lauts said is the base point tds of one's source water. Mine is 73 and my limit is 100 which gives me around 27 tds to play around with and just less than 30 percent differential from my source water. TDS may come from nitrate of which a consistent higher nitrate level as studied by many may lead to stunt growth in some fish. Some TDS may come from DOC, a poison if there is too much as studied by many in pollution control. TDS may come from phospate which at high levels leads to algae blooms.

    Koi needs as much stability as possible to avoid stress. Stress weakens their immune system and therefore stress can make them sick. What do you think will happen if you get a koi in Japan that has been used to living in 50 tds water and immediately put it in hard water of 400 tds or from water PH 6.8 to PH 8.5? Some of the kois will definitely get stress out and show veining, some will park, while some of the kois skin quality will deteriorate very fast. Of course there will some exceptional sturdy ones that will just swim as if nothing. Mike Snaden in one of his articles says that some Japanese kois that were bred in soft water and transported into high tds, high alkaline ponds in the UK were observed signs of stress while strangely those transported from high tds to low tds level were observed with less stress.

    There are hobbyist who change only water 25 to 50 percent once a month after major filter cleaning and refill dechlorinated water immediately and they will observe some of thier kois may park, breathe heavily, flash, loose appetite, beni lightening, or swim sideways. Because of this observation, they will wrongly conclude that it is not correct to drain and flush the main filter often and it is better to just let all the poo and decomposition matter accumulate in the biofilter as long as possible.

    Since I play with a tight discrepancy of PH and tds between source water and pond water, I can get away with massive water change or constant filter drain if necessary without causing any stress to the koi. I have several times accidentally removed up to 80 percent of the water and reintroduce new water within 3 hours period and observed no stress whatsoever.



    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-28 05:19:12 pm
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu

    that is a lot of information. Hehehe....Thank you.

    ....so the differential of the TDS level in the pond and the source is important to observe. I can agree and understand that.

    [Quote]
    Mike Snaden in one of his articles says that some Japanese kois that were bred in soft water and transported into high tds, high alkaline ponds in the UK were observed signs of stress while strangely those transported from high tds to low tds level were observed with less stress.
    [Unquote]

    do you have an explanation for this observation?

    From my understanding.....a koi subjected to a high TDS level environment (don't know whether let say 200 is considered high or not) even with stable differential TDS level will go into stress and weaken the autoimmune system of the koi ultimately. Your view on this please.

    Cheers.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    The observation of Mike Snaden proves that some kois needs a certain period to get acclimidated to its their new environment. I have observed in one occassion in one of the dealers pond after a month of quarantine one fourth of a batch of young baby tosais skin quality deteriorated. I can only conclude that the deterioration must have been the kois inability to quickly adapt to a sudden change in environment(temp, ph, water quality, mineral content, etc.) and stress from quarantine period. You can call these kois poor quality but I believe most of those affected can improve their quality again given the right environment that they are more suited for. I have taken some kois with poor skin quality in the dealers pond and introduced them in excellent water quality and their skin, beni, shiroji, and sumi quality improved as they grew.

    With regards to your second question, my view is that many kois are adaptive animals as such they can live without stress also in water with constant high tds and higher ph level. It will not weaken their immune system as well as long as the high tds does not contain toxic minerals and heavy metals and high DOC.. Baking soda is harmless to a koi and it increases the tds of water. Application of temporary salt can increase tds to as high as 5000ppm and yet salt is an important tool to relieve some stress by adding slime, protecting gills, killing some parasites and bacteria, and maintaining the salinity osmosis. As long as the koi has the genes to adopt to hard safe highly oxygenated water, they can grow as fast kois placed in softer water with lower TDS. The best example are most chagois that can grow fast whether placed in soft or hard water.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-28 07:27:36 pm
  • lautslauts March 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    I think it will be tough to expect processed koi pellets to contain all the essential protein, minerals etc if pellets is all we provide. Even if the manufacturer claims to produce the best, things get lost along the way via storage , expiry , handling etc. Nothing beats variety , via fresh produce , change/mix of pellets , additional vitamins etc added , much like human . Clays is another , for me its the high silicate content, that help solve my sumi issues.
    To test just add some clay ( not necessarily Refresh) and test the water daily over a week , you will see the TDS rise slowly. i think this is due to minerals slowly dissolve in water. Using bentonite clays esp expensive Refresh to settle fines is just too wasteful IMHO as it takes time for the minerals to dissolve for the benefits to be obtained.

    ts


  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro lauts,

    You are correct that process koi pellets may not contain all the necessary minerals and vitamins as such i do soak my processed food sometimes with vitamin enriched tonic water and apply koi clay as well to enhance sumi once in a while.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    Hmm……Mike Snaden observations did not proves that some kois needs a certain period of time to get acclimatized to their new environment. Yours did. From Mike articles…… it has impressed upon me and I find the most probable explanation to his observations is that the TDS levels of a pond can represent different states of osmosis. Due to the sudden change in TDS levels…it greatly affects osmotic pressure leading to the koi’s regulatory mechanisms cannot adapt fast enough to the change and hence the fish goes into an anaphylactic shock…...may be more correct to say TDS shock.

    I don’t have technical data or proof that koi body fluid total dissolved solids concentration is higher than then their environment. Nevertheless….it is my belief that it is and should be…… to support my hypothesis how TDS shock can happen.

    Changes in TDS concentrations especially when moving a fish from one environment to another are often stressful for a fish since the density of water plays a significant role in the flow of water into and out of an organism's cells…… mainly due to the changes in osmotic pressure.

    Now… When a koi is taken from low TDS levels environment to a high TDS levels environment….. it will cause the koi to lose fluid via its gills….. The koi can be dehydrated while it tries to assimilate to this new found environment. The dehydration definitely will cause stress.

    Now…. When a koi is taken from high levels of TDS levels environment to a low TDS levels….it will experience the opposite….. it will cause the koi to uptake fluid via its gills into the body. However…the koi osmoregulatory process of its body will be able to handle this better as its has the organs to remove it easier, thus resulting in less stress…… even if the difference in pH is considerable, though this definitely does depend on the age and the general water conditions and the genetic of the koi.

    Now… let say the koi is in an environment where the total dissolved solids in the water compared to the amount of solids in the tissue of the fish is always higher by a significant amount….. it will cause the fish to lose fluid via its gills. The koi organs cannot handle this process well as dehydration is expected. When a koi is undergoing or is under continuous dehydration….. more energy is required in an attempt to find an acceptable equilibrium…..it is natural that the koi will loose appetite and further a significant proportion of the foods consumed will be diverted to energy to address and to achieve body equilibrium. Very little energy remains for the body metabolism to produce protein to build body mass. Therefore slower growth and the koi are sluggish in nature.

    Now if the koi is already in a comfortable TDS levels and there is a sudden significant differential drop in TDS in the water caused by the koi keeper manipulating the water…this will cause the cells in the gills to explode as they will take in too much water and can be fatal in the extreme case. However, going the other way (suddenly to higher TDS) is dehydrating but less fatal usually.

    Now ….let say the koi body TDS level is just slightly higher then the environment TDS levels after assimilating well in a stable water condition……an osmotic process is in process where water enters the koi body in a steady state and this continuous steady uptake of the water into the koi body helps the body to regulate waste substances by carrying toxins that would otherwise build up in their system to be excreted urine. May be let us think as to why we need to have some recommended amount of water intake daily to stay healthy and help in digestion and etc. This water uptake makes them feel hungry…. Don’t believe me….you try to drink a bit more water at 3 to 4 o’clock and see by 6 pm it makes you feel hungry or not. Do you know why? Hehehe…..

    What you think about my hypothesis? Hehehehe…..

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    On the prefer lower GH value.....iy boild down from the breeders experience that with high GH their koi eggs cannot adapt well....due to the high calcium and magnesium rich water. many people like to relate and even equate TDS with KH and GH. Do you?

    Ok forget to mention.....high TDS levels water is usualy a base (slightly alkaline) substance, Why? ........it is lacking hydrogen molecules, and will search for hydrogen molecules in the body to balance itself. Thus leading me to believe slightly alkaline water, often causes de-hydration on the cellular level!

    However.....taking the extreme into consideration....water with zero TDS on the other hand, cannot become electrically charged, and therefore has an acid pH measurement, which simply means it is pure water loaded with positively charged hydrogen (H+) molecules, providing superior hydration at the cellular level."

    That is why I would conclude the Jap breeders ponds prefer low TDS level.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Interesting hypothesis. However, Like what I have said, there are some kois that perform well also in terms of growth and skin quality even when put in high tds water and there are kois that can adapt well with sudden change in tds levels. As such the debate with regards to whether what tds level is better gets confusing. What is not disputed is when some deadly heavy metals are present in the water, kois growth and quality are affected either short term or long term. The problem with higher tds water is that there is higher probability of water with contamination while low tds water has lower contamination probability. I believe as risk of contamination with lower tds water is lower, it is more acceptable in Japan.

    It's like people marketing and debating whether distilled, mineral or alkaline water is better. However, everyone will say all the above are superior than tap or worse deepwell water for drinking. Hehe. Personally, I prefer the taste of distilled RO water. It makes tastier juice and coffee. The minerals reintroduced in alkaline water is so minute that I believe I get these minerals anyway everyday from my balance diet daily intake.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-30 01:36:34 am
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    I have raised a question earlier whether kois are considered low pH fish. My answer is that they are considered Low not as in the pH value reading low value to classify them that way… but they are low TDS fish to be classified as such.

    Koi eggs and fry cannot adapt well in calcium and magnesium rich water as they will experience difficulty to hatch. This prompt me to opine that why breeders pond prefer such low low value. If you have another opportunity to discuss with breeders in Japan….please try to get them to share on this.

    We know koi body (i.e.body’s fluid and tissues) has an acid-alkaline ratio called pH which is a balance between positively charges ions and negatively charged ions. This koi body just like us will continually strives to balance pH……when there is an imbalance…..that is why problem surfaces and of course stress.

    Like us….koi body will maintain adequate alkaline reserves…reserves to meet emergency demands. Do you agree to this?

    On the using magic clay in the pond......I find they are good coagulant. Okok I know some will religiously use it likes some sort of a magic powder that will make the koi healthy and developed certain features they would like the koi to have. This IMO is an illusion and manifestation of the koi keeper mind. hehehe....

    Look....I am not even sure those inorganic ions from this magic powder can be assimilated by the koi itself. I have yet to read an articles or literature to confirm this. Again this is an illusion of the koi keeper after seeing more water clarity after introducing it.

    cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I am not knowledgable with regards to the effect of calcium and magnesium enriched water in causing difficulty in hatching. maybe so sifus here who has experience with breeding may want to share their experience and comment on this.

    With regards to powder like Refresh, it does cause a change in the shiroji and to a certain degree sumi of a koi. I have used it before and have been attested by many hobbyist in Japan as well. Some generic bentonite being marketed as similar to refresh does not perform as well as refresh in shiroji and sumi conditioning but only acts as to clear the water.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-30 01:57:01 am
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    er.....does it change the shiroji from a jaundice condition to a snow white condition? How long after you have used it before you notice the effect?

    Are you still dozing it and mixing it with the food?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I would not call it like that but certainly looks whiter. I used it for a month. I dont use it anymore because there are other ways to accomplish the same effect.
  • harryyewharryyew March 2012
    Posts: 396
    I see....

    May I know what other ways you can accomplish the same effect.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    First of all, let me say first that in my experience a koi with an inherent dirty yellow shiroji will only whiten to a certain degree but will quickly return to its inherent shiroji color in normal times. Same goes with kois with inherent beautiful white shiny skin, it can deteriorate slower but when put in normal good condition its inherent quality will return back quickly. And you have everything in between.

    Shiroji, beni and to a certain degree sumi quality condition to look the best in time of a koi show has many techniques for different hobbyist. For me, by soaking my koi food sometimes in vitamin C,B complex, calcium, zinc, etc enriched tonic water, the shiroji of most of the kois will improve very fast.
    As early as two months I would slowly reduce also their food intake while temperature is at around 23 and maintaining water heavy water change rate to consolidate the colors(beni, shiroji and sumi will improve) and give optimal water quality. The kois will however shrink in some girth and will grow slower but in general they would still look very healthy and big because of the frequency of my feeding rate. For completion and for them to look their utmost best, I would transfer them in a special tank with very clean water devoid of any carpet algae with massive daily water change without any feeding and apply elbagin and Stresscoat to calm them and give an articificial protective glossy coat while protecting them also from ammonia.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-31 08:31:28 am
  • boykoiboykoi March 2012
    Posts: 186
    you are right bro HDCU.even i have plans of an auto feeder DIY to be built by a friend of mine.multiple feedings at less grams per feed in a 2 hour interval is the optimum feed rate i too want to achieve.this is only possible if i have an auto feeder,of course not unless you dont have anything else to do all day and night hehehe.

    3kg/day?are you really inclined to feed that much?remember that as your kois grow into the 50cm up range,they dont gobble up the 3% recomended feed per gram wight range,they slow down. at even a 70cm up range,1 pct gram per koi weight is recomendable.i even read hear that David Soons 22 jumbos gets 12 kilos of feed a month,but though he uses FD koi food,thats considerably less than going through grams per koi weight ratio.i brought this up because i too designed my filters to half the tonnage of y pond just to get enough jmatts and K1 to achieve 3kg or more a day feeding,i tell you i havent even gotten to a kilo a day hehehe.too expensive even for lesser koi food quality.what i recommend is,design your filters efficiently.

    2x setup is okay in big pond settings,but i think youd need 50% filter/pond ratio to achieve this.lesser than that and your water will just be passing through without much bio activity.as to the ERIC filters,youd need to consider and incorporate an effortless trickling on tap water as this systems dont get results if you missed a days waterchange.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro boykoi,

    I did not say 3kg a day and probably the maximum feed would already after many years would only be 1.5 kg. The 3kg is the maximum my new pond design can only take. My present feed rate in one of my pond is 350 grams a day for six 50 cm and one 35 cm. That just translate to around 2 to 3 percent.

    At present I do 24 hours trickling. My new pond setup will be two sets of Eric type filter that if you stretch it will be 4.5 meter in length each which powered by two sequel 5800gph pump to each corresponding bakki to give a turnover rate of 2x. For a 16 ton pond, I would already be using a total of 14 Japanese Matt which I think is enough. . Eric filters have a retention time of just 3 plus minutes, mine will be a little longer than that. I have designed automatic interval drain so that there will no massive change needed and the maximum water level that will lower is less than 5 percent. 24 hours trickling passing to filters first will still be employed.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-03-31 09:07:59 am
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    May I know how much you supplemented these vitamin C,B complex, calcium, zinc into the koi diet? You say fast improvement....How fast?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I use a half tablet of berocca dissolved in a small cup of distilled drinking water and soak my koi food of around 50g until the koi pellets absorbs all of the tonic. Put ref if unfinished but should be finished the next day. I feed twice or thrice a week as a vitamin supplement. Improvement in appetite and shiroji within a week Or two depending on the inherent quality of the koi for me.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-02 08:22:45 am
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    thank you for the feedback.....

    How do you know you have not overdose your koi with the vitamins?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Hehe. I think since they are growing well both in length and girth and don't look lethargic, I don't think I'm over dosing. Plus since these vitamins are proven safe for humans already since the brand is already famous. the danger of vitamin poisoning with just twice a week application is rather remote. Any vitamin excess not absorbed by the koi are flushed easily out its system as the vitamins are water soluble. A lot of the koi food looses their vitamins during the manufacturing process and more so when exposed already to atmosphere for a long time. :)
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    .....have you encountered any bad experience and unfortunate lost to health issues with your koi to date?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Dear Harryyew,

    I lost a fast growing with lots of appetite Kujaku that grew from 19 to 50cm in 8 months after I introduced a new Nisai kohaku from another dealer early this year. My failure to do a proper koi quarantine procedure and not feeding all the kois and salting the pond one week before new introduction is my stupid mistake. Never trust any dealers quarantine procedure.

  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good evening Bro HDCu

    We all like to manipulate our water chemistry to be in accord with a good set of water parameters to achieve what we all perceived is a good water quality. Many of the beliefs are usually unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

    There is a distinction between using calcium bentonite clay and using supplements like vitamin C, B complex, calcium, zinc….. Namely one cleanses the overall system while the other boost for a stronger immune system in the body only.

    Both have it side effects…..Heavy stuffs indeed if we go into the details of the tiny science.

    Basically calcium bentonite clay removes toxins and impurities,…..it detoxify the body. Calcium bentonite clay power lies in the fact that it is negatively charged ions while toxins and impurities are positively charged ions. These positive and negative ions will attract to each other and stay within it and then flushed out of the system along the clay. They are absorptive in nature. According to Canadian Journal of microscopy (31[1985],50-53) , bentonite clay can absorb pathogenic viruses; aflatoxin and can eliminate these toxins from the body.

    Vitamins are basically organic compounds. They are micronutrients required to sustain a healthy life. The importance of vitamins in diet is discovered around the 20th century. Simplifying it they are anti-oxidants that help to neutralize the free radicals in the body. Free radicals are produced when the body cells create energy and when we are exposed to pollutants or toxics. They boost the immune system by neutralizing the free radicals broadly speaking.

    Fish is a cold blooded creature (i.e. ectotherms). It takes on the temperature of their surrounding. Cold blooded animals are much more active in warm environments and are sluggish in cold environments. I believe this is to do with their muscle activity. Now cold blooded animal can convert much more of its food into body mass compared with a warm blooded animal.

    Fish are in the low chain of food supplied. We are at the upper end. Our body immune system has a higher order and basically the fish immune system is a simple system and much much less complex than us… the human. When we try to equate their needs with us….I think that needs cannot be intelligently answered…..

    Your belief is that by introducing vitamins you can remove the toxins and pollutants that are inevitable found in the body. IMHO….you can’t…the best is that you can neutralize the free radicals……. free radicals that can mutate the body future DNA and RNA cell blueprint message….ultimately leading to cellular electronic imbalance and degenerating the cell structure. Anti- oxidants are just substances to prevent or slow down the oxidative damages to the body. They do not removed the toxins or pollutants accumulated in the koi body and water body. Vitamins are generally anti-oxidants but there are some vitamins through research have established that they are also pro-oxidant in nature. One example is vitamin C. Too much consumption can even led to problem with the kidney for example. The details of how vitamins can be damaging too can be google or you can consult a vet or a doctor to verify what I have concluded. I have. hehehe….. The damaging effect will not be evidently showed up in the immediate but in the long run it will.

    In summary…toxins, pollutants and free radicals are not the same thing but one common feature is that they are damaging to the health of the body.

    From your descriptions on the progress of your koi and how certain elements you have introduced into your system and inhabitants…..I gather you have progressed from your own try and error and experiments with it. There is nothing wrong in this approach…..but have you ever pause for a minute…your observations are actually placebo effect and a manifestation of your brain. Hehehe…... This is the impression I have.

    I note there are many hobbyists are claiming the foods are lacking vitamins and or have loss its nutrients due to storage……if a tablet of berocca containing all the good nutrients can be maintained by dissolving into distilled water (btw…why not use deionized water)….why the same nutrients cannot be maintained in the food. Hmm….put it in another way….can the organic compound in the koi food cannot be maintained because the producers know nuts about this nutrients and only Bayer knows how? I find this had to comprehend.

    Furthermore….is there any proof that commercial sold koi food lack all the important essential vitamins essential for koi health. Is there a remote possibility we are all overcautious and over pandai than the manufactures’ know how? Have anyone established the vitamins found in the koi foods have actually deteriorated over say a 3 months period of use?

    Koi can loose appetite for many reasons. Tell me what is the most likely cause when a koi start to loose appetite? Lack of vitamins? Sure not placebo effect on your end. Hehehe…….

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    One must realize that processed koi food go to manufacturing process where heat and compression is applied. There is no doubt that essential vitamins and minerals and in some probiotics are included. Assuming all the vitamin claims of the manufacturer are still included in the processed food after the manufacture. The moment the food is exposed to a hot humid atmosphere like in the tropics, the efficacy of vitamin c, ascorbic acid, a common antioxidant Is reduced. If you read the label of vitamin c packaging, many manufacturers put "store in a cool, dry place" with an expiration date.

    As I have mentioned early, I only feed thru use of an outdoor automatic feeder that is subjected to rain, moisture, and heat of the sun. I don't think any manufacturer of koi food will argue that they will guarantee their koi food "freshness" under these conditions conditions for a long period. I don't either as such I try to load daily and not weekly. However, even if I load already daily, I am not totally convince of "freshness" as compared to a newly opened koi food with an expiration date a full year ahead. My use of vitamin supplement is just one of way since I don't feed any green leafy vegetables , oranges, silkworm pupae or inject directly vitamin b12 as recommended by some. Second reason is that I believe that at the present situation or until such time I finish upgrade to a bigger pond, the stress level of a crowded pond is much higher. Take note that Koi food manufacturers DO NOT even state the percentages of vitamins they put or if it is enough to relieve the daily stress.

    Now, could it be just a placebo effect? This debate is still ongoing to many people who swear by taking vitamins and those who say it is just placebo effect. But then again there are many controlled placebo effects of vitamin supplements studies and all point to benefits of taking vitamin supplements especially vitamin c and vitamin b complex to relieve stress.

    Have I done a scientific controlled placebo effect studies with using vitamin supplements with my kois? I have not but only thru observation and own conclusions have I continued to maintain my regimen like many people who continues to swear by taking their own daily vitamin supplements.

    To me, the number one reason why kois loose their appetite is because of stress from many factors(water quality, over feed or indigestion, spawning, parasite, crowded conditions, etc.), Other reasons are temperature and inactivity.

    During our recent koi show, I had been asked by many hobbyist how I am able to bulk up and grow my entries fast and even improve their skin quality despite my disadvantage of an overcrowded small shallow pond and just feeding a china based food that cost only equivalent to 35 us dollars per 5 kg. I tell them just be observant to what your kois tell you and thru proper observation what you think is lacking. Vitamin supplement is just one of my way that i think whether placebo or not works for me and it should not follow that it will make a difference to others.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-03 09:30:13 am
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    How to compare vitamins used for human vs claimed vitamins added to koi feed ? Don't know abt you but i store my vitamins in fridge , they come in darken glass bottles and follow the expiry strictly. Due to human consumption , they are tested independently and by authorities. As for my koi feed , it is store room temp , sometimes exposed to sun, usually has abt 6 month left to expiry, not in air tight containers. The industrial 15kg pack i use is not even air tight. And this is after i got it , think of exposure to high temp during transport. I think a lot of ingredients , vitamins and minerals included would have degraded. Although the feed has a "guaranteed analysis" printed , guaranteed by whom ? Govt or independently tested? Most of the feed we get here was produced abt a year ago.
    I tend to think , we all do , health supplements producers eg Roche , Blackmores , Supradyn, Berocca etc knows more than our koi feed producers, when comes to nutrition :)
    For this reason alone , adding vitamins is justified although i do agree we may not know the long term effect.

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro HDCu & Bro lauts

    .......there is a common perception that fresh is often best for optimal vitamin content. One further promotes and believe that fresh product should undergoes minimal storage at either room or refrigerated temperature....

    Do you know that the loss of vitamins with time differs from one fruit to the other under similar conditions. Research has shown that solution ascorbic acid cause significant loss while it has been refrigerated. Pineapple is better. If you are refering specific about vitamin C, it is pH that will control it's stability!

    Do you know that micro organism growth...such as bateria and fungi is the scientific explanation of spoilage and decay and of course chemical changes from ripening and senescence processes are the other major contributor.

    Ask yourself this question....have my koi free from illness or stress since the day I have injected fantastic amount of multi-vitamins into them???

    Do you know that pure vitamin C crystals do not deteriorate? Vitamin C from natural fruits under storage does!

    Let us now look at vitamin B-12. This vitamin is the nutrient that is mostly available in nature solely from animal sources....Do you know that if your diet is proper....there is vitamin B-12 stored in the liver? A deficiency should not develop before enough food of animal origin would again be made available.

    Hehehe..... You guys have impressed upon me that these extra dosages of multi- vitamins will made your koi be able to swim better in circles around koi of their own age!

    Do you know Spirulina contains about 70 percent protein and has all of the essential amino acids needed for life. Plus, they are all balanced perfectly by nature. 70 percent protein is extremely high for any food. For example, beef is only 22 percent protein. It is also a better quality of protein than other vegetable sources, such as legumes.

    Algae contains many vital nutrients, such as protein, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, phytonutrients, trace minerals and enzymes. It is also very high in chlorophyll.
    some of the vitamins it contains are A, B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, C, D and E. It’s a real plus to get vitamin B12 from any plant source, as it is usually only found in meat. This is great news for vegetarians.

    Spirulina contains important minerals such as magnesium, calcium, potassium, manganese, phosphorus, selenium, chromium, iron, copper and zinc as well as many important trace minerals.
    Algae also contains important essential fatty acids the body needs, like (ALA), (LA), (GLA), (DHA), (EPA) and (SDA). It is rich in pigments, including chlorophyll, zeaxanthin, beta-carotene and others.

    Even though the nutrients contained in Spirulina come in much smaller amounts than your average drugstore multi-vitamin, they are very much superior. They are in a natural form and highly assimilable. The body easily absorbs these beneficial nutrients and uses them to improve and maintain good health.

    Both of you depict bad handling in descriptions to justify to need to introduce multi-vitamins at a rate that not only is based on pandai pandai and syiok syiok which in all probability will cause damage to the health of the koi in the long term....

    When one start to shift the Law of Equilibrium and the order of nature....that is when problems start to surface and you go into various rectification measures in a HOPE to put it back in order.....the result is usually in the negative....

    Look .... you don't even have substatiated evidence to justify what you are doing is accepted as proper and is endorsed by the veterinary science....

    Tell me ...... Do you think it is right and ethical to inject my koi with regular dexamethsone? Hehehe...

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    There is nothing natural in koi hobby. The moment we put our kois to our circulating concrete ponds and feed them processed koi foods, we stopped being natural. Many Koi hobbyist prefer growing show koi as quick as possible now than many years ago. Now you can raise a koi to 80cm in less than five years. However, it is a common belief that the lifespan of many kois have shortened because of our manipulation. But why do many hobbyist still persist even with this common belief. I do believe this is so because of our need to show immediate results. Take for example a koi fish grown to 85 cm in 5 years as compared to one grown to that size in 12 years. The 5 year old fish will have higher probably having better young skin quality as compared to the 12 year old fish. Additional 7 years also entails additional risk of injury, sickness or disease that will possibly eliminate its chances of future koi shows. Assuming at 12 years old, it wins an award, the possibility of selling it at a high price after the show is much less compared to a young champion koi because many hobbyist will think that it's quality will soon deteriorate. Also at koi show, the best quality kois in terms of skin and color quality are the 70 to 75 bu range where now are mostly sansai.

    So am I thinking the health and beauty of the koi when I feed 6 to 10x a day with vitamin supplements? Yes I do. Do I aspire to win again a plastic koi show trophy? Yes i do. Do i want my friends to compliment me when they see my show kois? Yes i do. Do I expect these koi to live at least 15 to 20 years under my care? No I don't. Would I feel guilty if they don't live that long? No I wont as they are all replaceable in my eyes.

    Btw, I still have a few local kois in one of my ponds in my plant, where they at not fed at all. They just eat the algae as the water is green always. They don't grow big and their skin quality are ugly but they are now 10 years old and seem very healthy. However, I am just waiting for them to one day die so I can use that pond for better quality kois. Hehe.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-03 01:01:34 pm
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry ,

    There use to be a craze sometime ago , hobbyist injecting/feeding B12 to their koi. I still have the whole set of vial and needles. I think it is too intrusive so , I DO NOT recommend this.
    What i do is soak my feed 2-3 time weekly with Vit C fortified with Calcium and E , from those effervescent tablet for children. I don't think its harmful in any way. In fact if you read Sin koi society website , it is recommended by the vet.
    There are many hobbyist that fortified their feed with multivite/ etc , just like human taking supplements. To each their own i say.

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Hehehe......

    I think both of you have read me in the negative. It is not about whether it is natural or otherwise. It is whether what both of you have broadcast your beliefs religiously is appropriate or otherwise.

    I am merely pointing out what your beliefs of the various "wonders" you have considered are based on unsubstantiated evidences to support your hypothesis or theory.....

    If you all revisit my earlier posts, I have been consistent with my points of view. I have not shift my goal post. Hehehe....

    I can accept each individual has a different set of goals in their upbringing and upkeeping of their koi including what is the best system design for their use and enjoyment. I can live with that. The desire of how one wants to subject their koi to is their perogayive too.

    There is obvious difference in opinions in the ongoing discussions. This is expected. However...........

    We need to differentiate between facts and opinions. One opinion is a matter of taste and one's opinion isn't neccessarily better than another opinion. Facts on the other hand are not based on opinion but on checking whether something is present or not. We all need to differentiate this distinction....

    I enjoy the discussions....

    Cheers
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Harry,

    I think in this forum discussion , in this thread at least, it is all abt individual observation , anecdotal evidence if you like. And it is these observation that we share in forum discussion , and it may be skewed and not correct. If there are many who share the same observation, we can take that observation may likely be correct. But still no one can claim what he says is fact while another claim is opinion. Our observations even if many share the same, are not subjected to scientific and empirical tests.

    And based on these observations , we take different path to achieve our goals. You may find goals are quite similar amongst hobbyist but the path taken differs much. IMHO this is where a koi forum plays an important role , to guide koi hobbyist new and old, along a path worth taking. And hopefully not end up with our kois going back to Japan" :-)) :-)) . Learn from mistake , other peoples mistake .

    ts
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell April 2012
    Posts: 110
    ---Btw, I still have a few local kois in one of my ponds in my plant, where they at not fed at all. They just eat the algae as the water is green always. They don't grow big and their skin quality are ugly but they are now 10 years old and seem very healthy. However, I am just waiting for them to one day die so I can use that pond for better quality kois. Hehe.---

    This ia a FRM talk. Better still fry it and invite all your F friends to have a good makan. This way, you dont need to wait for your local kois to die by not feeding them and have a pond ready for your grand champion kois.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Brudders,

    I have been reading this thread with great interest and anticipation. Its packed with loads of information and inside knowledge. What ever it is, don't stop and keep going. It may feel tanse a times but it was brotherhoodly handled ;-) I believe many hobbyist have gained a lot of info esp for hobbyist like me who is lazy to read :-D Thank you.

    On giving vitamin or suppliment to our kois, I am one who can never conclude anything as the feeding of these vitamins was never more than a month and I am not sure that all parameters were kept constant thru out that period which will be an important factor to conclude it's effectiveness. For example, I fed spirulina tablets for a few weeks once to certain kois and hopefully to get obvious result on the beni or detoriation on shiroji but it didnt give any result. So my conclusion, some vitamins or addictive which are meant for human may not gave the same result to kois. Again the dosage will be another issue. But some do worked for some hobbyist.

    As safer and lazy steps, I rely a lot on ready made food, ready made clay or ready made product which has been tested by expert or senior hobbyist. One thing for sure, sifus and hobbyist of this hobby are never stingy sharing their tots, experience and opinion.

    Therefore, I greatly appreciate the results or experiment shared by hobbyist either good or bad. Thank you.

    Regards

    Post edited by ikankoikau at 2012-04-03 07:38:29 pm
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    As we are now talking about koi food, vitAmin c and supplements, I would like to point out that FD food includes in their some of their premium line the following unusual ingredients:
    1. Stevia powder - an all natural no calorie sweetener that have been studied to reduce blood pressure. (how would one know first the blood pressure of a koi? There does not seem to be any studies?)
    2. Paprika - a spice Made from grinding chili or bell peppers. It has very high vitamin c content and lots of antioxidant. Stevia-paprika mix? Sweet and spicy koi food?
    3. Dry brewers yeast - Beer anyone? Hehe
    4. Gluten meal - a cheap by product of corn and used widely in poultry and livestock feed. Hmmm. Fact: Commercial chickens do grow the fastest?
    5. Alfalfa - loaded with vitamins, protein and calcium. In old chinese medicine, it is use to treat Disorders related to digestive and kidney. My dwarf rabbit loves this and he's now turning 8. My Peruvian hamster ate too much too fast and died in 6 months.
    :-?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-04 09:09:22 am
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good day Bro HDCu, Bro lauts and to all brothers

    There is something intrinsic and rooted deep in the human psyche that externally searches for a miracle pill, portion, compound, substance or procedure that will do one of the 3 things, namely

    1) make you look slim...in the case of koi....like a submarine shape
    2) make you have a better muscular outlook
    3) make you look and feel younger than your actual chronologic age.

    Supplements are meant to supplement not supplant! I am sure many of us here at one point in time will wonder if all these supplements are really necessary for optimal health or side effects....IMHO....it can be a Yes or a No.

    The problem as I see it is that the supplement market is just about all products lumped together. The craze like organic extract next to newest miracle weight loss pill is there. The marketing advertisement to me is a plan inception into us....

    Supplement makers who proclaim extraordinary results that defy rationale expectations, playing to people's external demand for some blasted substance or another magically allow the acquisition of optimum health is questionable. For me (btw I don't take supplements)....the diet supplements to avoid are those that are designed to give you some sort of competitive edge or promise shortcut...

    The point is.....there is reason they are called "supplement". They are not meant to complement the poorer diet plan and defintely not going to be a cure all for all needs.

    Bro HDCu

    .....you have mentioned about using a generator set for your emergency power supply backup plan. Auto cut in type ar?

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Unfortunately the generator set is only maid activated. I could not find a gasoline auto gen set for only 2 kw that has an electronic automatic transfer switch.

    "There is something intrinsic and rooted deep in the human psyche that externally searches for a miracle pill, portion, compound, substance or procedure that will do one of the 3 things, namely "

    1) make you look slim...in the case of koi....like a submarine shape -- bangkok pills perhaps?
    2) make you have a better muscular outlook -- steroids perhaps?
    3) make you look and feel younger than your actual chronologic age. --Botox perhaps?

    How about a safer way to achieve all that? -- a sexy beautiful young mistress perhaps? Hmmm... But then again is that safe as well? Oh well, I'll stick to exercise and vitamins again.
    :-)) :-)) :-))
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-04 10:20:06 pm
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Like that ar...

    Let us assume she can and know how to activate.
    How are you going to regulate multiple incoming supply when the main supply resume?

    How you arrive to the 2kW requirement?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    It's very simple. Start the generator. Pull out two of the three main plugs that control each sets of pump and airpumps from the electrical socket. Plug the two to running generator. When power comes back all three plugs supplying all pumps are now running. Stop generator. Unplug the two plugs from generator and then plug again to main power. all Power running again. Maid needs to be on alert if after 5 mins of no power. Generator can run for 8 hours.

    In the event the generator breaks down and blackout may be longer emergency plan 2 kicks in. Stop automatic feeder. Drain 40 percent of pond water, Dose antichroline in the water, then get garden hose and spray to pond surface like rain.

    2kva genset can power a total of 1 kw of water and air pumps.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-04 10:48:42 pm
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Ok. So you are doing it manually.

    What happen when the maid is on leave or sick and you are on vacation or outstation? No one at home. How brother? Hehehe....

  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    bro Harry,

    unfortunately, if that scenario happens then I have to say goodbye to the kois. Fortunately, I will be quadrupling my pond water to koi size ratio soon as such I would have more time to save them. Not full proof but it's better for now.

    Btw, I have installed CCTV to record and monitor whereever I am if the maid is doing her daily chores. Hehe
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hahaha..... Like this is just surveillance lah... Can see cannot touch leh.
    Are you sure you can go through this type of frustration from a distant watching helplessly your maid cannot start the genset or she fallen asleep when the most unexpected happen?

    Your current backup also on generator? Sure can jalan one when you pull start it?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I ask my maid to do several genset start drills to always practice like fire drill. Hehe.
    In case, she cannot start genset, emergency plan B takes effect. Hehe
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    wah Bro terror lah!!! got emergency plan B pulak.....

    May I know how plan B work?

    Does your maid know how to check the electrical board MCCB, ELCB and MCB tripped?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    In the event the generator breaks down and blackout may be longer emergency plan 2 kicks in. Stop automatic feeder. Drain 40 percent of pond water, Dose antichroline in the water, then get garden hose and spray to pond surface like rain.

    I doubt any maid would understand the electrical boards. The simpler instructions the better. She might end up burning the whole house if I teach her that before she saves the kois. Haha.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    I see....

    Do you know gasoline cannot be stored for long (say a month or so? We are not getting that frequent power supply interruption. Do you use a fuel stabilizing chemical to preserve your fuel properties or you rotate your inventory on a regular basis to avoid problems?

    May I know your rationale of not choosing an Inverter system?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    You are correct that gasoline cannot be stored for along time but I use 100 percent octane which is more effective longer. I will put it into consideration of draining and replacing new gasoline.

    I have thought of using an inverter with battery as well but battery needs constant charging and checking if not in use and would not last more than 2 hours so I opted for a genset instead.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    ....but there are inverters that comes built in with a charging system for the battery in line system. I find the inverter is a very easy and inexpensive solution. The battery with high Ah rating is expensive. Some brands are sealed lead acid type with capacity beyond 240Ah and are rated for a 10 years design life span but provide for a 1 year product warranty.

    With this system......the more cars you have at home...the more power supply you have in the event additional power supply is required from your provision in the emergency. 24hours supply leh.....you can get AAM to deliver.

    Are you planning to have an alarm system build in to provide you with visual and audio warning system whenever there is a power interruption?

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I did study auto charging like UPS but so far I had no luck with UPS. They don't seem to last longer than 2 years. I have replaced many already over the years. My plant manger says in times of sudden brownout and sudden power on , the load is very unstable shortening the life of many UPS. Of course, a dedicated inverter with a auto switch on and auto charging coupled to an external car battery may be better but I have to consider that it is exposed to the outdoors where the rated IP is not really design for.

    Maybe an auto SMS system in case of power interruption is possible. I'll check into it.
  • ShukriShukri April 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Harryyew,
    That's when you either put into the pond an Oxydator (eventhough not the best of options) or you let the tap water runs through 24X7........
    Or install that special gadget that when there is a power failure, the gadget will call your hp number informing of the power trip, and you can alert your neighbor to check the power and restore electricity bak on (assuming that you have already left your keys with your neighbor that is..........)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.


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