Understanding the E. Coli bacteria.
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Introduction:
    Escherichia coli ( /ˌɛʃɨˈrɪkiə ˈkoʊlaɪ/;[1] commonly abbreviated E. coli) is a Gram-negative, rod-shaped bacterium that is commonly found in the lower intestine of warm-blooded organisms (endotherms). Most E. coli strains are harmless, but some serotypes can cause serious food poisoning in humans, and are occasionally responsible for product recalls due to food contamination.[2][3] The harmless strains are part of the normal flora of the gut, and can benefit their hosts by producing vitamin K2,[4] and by preventing the establishment of pathogenic bacteria within the intestine.[5][6] sourced from wikipedia.

    How does E. coli get in the water?
    According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the presence of E. coli in water is a strong indication of recent sewage or animal waste contamination.

    Is probiotics found in some koi food now also an e. coli?
    yes as some strains of e. coli are Not pathogenic but can aid in the digestion.

    here's something to note:

    Fruits and vegetables that grow close to the ground are susceptible to E. coli contamination if, for example, improperly composted cattle manure is used as a fertilizer. To those who make their own paste koi food and feed supplemental fruits and vegetables should take this into consideration.

    Like humans, Different kois have different immune systems. Some are susceptible easily to pathogenic e coli while some kois with stronger immune system can handle it. Interesting to note that some pathogenic e. coli that invades the koi with good immunity can spread rapidly and can contaminate other kois with weaker immunities.

    In human cases, symptoms of e coli poisoning clear up on their own within five to 10 days. The use of antibiotics is not recommended because the bacteria creates a toxin in its cell and if you kill the cell with antibiotics the toxin gets released into the bloodstream. Does this hold true as well with kois?

    We have heard many stories of hobbyist having problems with bird shit with e. coli strain where koi dont have immunity falling into pond kept in pristine water conditions causing all sorts of bacterial problem symptoms for our pets. Please give your opinions on how to prevent and deal with it?



  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    What are the symptoms of E coli infestation in koi? This is key to our discussion.
    Many bro complain abt rain water causing flashing etc , could it be e-coli from bird shit collected in roof tile got washed into the pond ?

    I feed veges weekly , but after soaking them in tap water for a while. So far so good.

    thanks
    ts
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    bro Lauts,

    Hemmorhaghic septecemia(blood poisoning) and pine coned(damaged kidneys), pop eye infection could have been caused by bad bacteria inside of koi body.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Hmmm........E coli O157:H7

    Currently.....there is no evidence that E coli causes illness in animals. They only serve as carriers of the organism...

    Koi is NOT a warm blooded.....they do not carry E coli internally! However...,the water covering the koi can contain E coli.

    Brothers...where did your get the source from?

    Cheers


  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    Good thing you clarify things but there are so many kind of strains. like I said not all e coli strain are harmful to humans as well. But whenever we hear food poisoning, we associate it with e coli. if we feed spoiled food with high population of pathogenic e coli contamination to the kois, are they immune compared to humans? Also I hear that there are some hobbyist who have their pond water tested and one of the parameters is the bacterial count and e. coli count. What does it mean and how is one hobbyist going to interpret the data?
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    hehehe....please allow me to share this with you......

    All E. Coli is coliform but not all coliform is E. Coli.

    The E. Coli mechanism of pathology is releasing a toxin that is responsible for causing diarrhoea. Diarrhoea causes loss of fluid and electrolytes which if excessive can eventually caused death!

    Koi cannot dehydrate in water unless my earlier hypothesis in the other thread is wrong or SALAH.....so....How can the organism be toxic to the koi???

    However....if we equate coliform and E.coli as a baterial indicator of the sanitary quality of water then...I can accept. Their high presence only direct us to interpret that other pathogenic organisms of faecal origin may be present.....which entail bateria, viruses or Protozoa and multicellular parasites.

    Do you know that 55 strains of E. Coli are part of normal flora in our gut....only 6 are harmful to human namely...enteropathogenic, enterotoxigenic,enterohemorrhagic, enteroinvasive, enteroaggregative & diffuse-aggregative.

    Can you confirm these 6 are harmful to koi?

    Hehehe....

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Hmmmm.... Bro HDCu

    ........did hear they also test for helminth?

    Hehehe...
    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro HDCu,

    E. Coli are also aenorobic bacteria right? Not all aenorobic bacteria also dangerous to koi from what I know.

    Are there only 55 E. Coli strains? or are these the only strains researched?

    With regards to the 6 harmful to humans, maybe I can ask my friend vet or friend who studied fisheries about it or best a microbiologist.

    Helminth? koi parasite worms? thats something new. Hmmm... maybe thats a reason why some kois remain thin even though they are heavy eaters? hehe.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-13 10:55:32 pm
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    hahahaha......Bro HDCu

    you are a fun guy to have a discussion with......hehehe....

    I like your intended way to induce laughter or amusement. Look..... brother at the post directly above this......you attention to yourself. Why answer to yourself...it is as though you are me in replying to you......hehehehe..........

    E. coli is facultative anaerobic. It is not a pure anaerobic in nature.

    According to the medical book that I have.......they said 55 and the 6 pathogenic are only known to be in the human body. May be like all lifeforms.....there will be always new strains of E. coli that have evolved through the natural biological processes of mutation, gene copying and horizontal gene transfer. In the pond I don't think this evolution biological processes will be happening because I cannot see any external forces that can promote such occurrence.

    Yes.. please ask the vet and/or microbiologist what I said is right or wrong. I also want to know. hehehehe......

    Our city water supply is tested for helminth presence.

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    OK did some serious research and there is REALLY some fish intestine parasites.

    Article taken from PETCO website.

    Intestinal parasites are worms and protozoa (one-celled organisms) that take up residence in an animal's intestines. Once there, they get free room and board, sucking blood and body fluids from your precious pet. Here's the lowdown on the four intestinal parasites that commonly inhabit fish: tapeworms, flukes, roundworms and coccidia.

    Tapeworms

    When we think of tapeworms, also known as cestodes, most of us imagine long, flat, wriggling worms that inhabit the intestines of dogs, cats or even people. But tapeworms go through their first stages of development in other species, such as fish.

    Fish become infected when they eat a small crustacean, such as a water flea, that has dined on tapeworm eggs. The larvae inhabit the fish's muscle tissue, enclose themselves in a pouch and continue developing. In the wild, a bird, reptile or mammal eventually eats the infected fish, and the tapeworm larvae travel to the animal's intestine where they grow to maturity and reproduce.

    How can you tell if your fish have tapeworms? You may notice tumor-like bumps on their skin. These bumps are developing larvae. Though the bumps are unsightly, the larvae generally don't harm the fish. If you really want to get rid of them, your veterinarian can prescribe a parasiticide called praziquantel. Giving your fish a one-time bath in this solution should kill the larvae.

    Flukes

    Like tapeworms, flukes, a.k.a. trematodes, often use fish as intermediate hosts. Fluke larvae also enter a fish's muscle tissue or gills to continue their development.

    You may see silver dollar fish with small black spots peppering their skin. These intriguing color mutations indicate infection with a fluke genus known as neascus. Another fluke genus, diplostomum, often invades a fish's eye causing blindness. Never purchase fish with white eyes, which are a sure sign of disease.

    Several flukes in the heterophyes genus are particularly perturbing to fish fanciers. These parasites destroy the gills and leave fish clinging to life. Affected fish rarely withstand the stress of shipping, so it's unlikely you'll purchase one. But because fish acquire these flukes by eating snails, you should thoroughly rinse and quarantine any live plants you purchase for your home aquarium to prevent fluke-infested mollusks from sneaking into your fish's environment. As with tapeworms, a praziquantel bath can kill flukes.

    Roundworms

    Roundworms, or nematodes, inhabit various organs in fish. Some reside in a fish's stomach or intestines, where they scarf down the food your little swimmer ingests. In this case, your fish may look emaciated. Other roundworms harmlessly hibernate in muscle tissue or swim around in the abdominal cavity. If roundworms are holed up in the abdomen, your fish's belly may look swollen.

    If you suspect most or all of your fish are infected with roundworms, you can treat the tank by mixing the dewormer called fenbendazole into their food. But be sure to stop feeding the fish three days before treatment to make sure they're famished since the medicated food isn't appealing.

    Many owners of live-bearers, fish that bear live young instead of eggs, report seeing a wiggly red worm emerging from a fish's cloaca - the opening for the digestive, urinary and reproductive tracts. This is also a type of roundworm, but infections with these parasites usually clear up on their own.

    Coccidia

    Coccidiosis, an infection with the protozoa coccidia, occurs in goldfish worldwide, especially in early spring in rearing ponds where cool water may make the fish more susceptible to illness. If your fish have coccidiosis, their eyes may look sunken because of weight loss and you may see diarrhea in the form of fluid yellow feces.

    Your veterinarian can identify coccidia eggs with a fecal exam. You can try to kill the parasite by mixing anticoccidial medications with food, but this treatment may not be completely effective.

    Fish who survive the infection may still harbor some coccidia, which will shed their eggs in times of stress. Goldfish fanciers should monitor their fish's feces and treat the fish promptly at the first sign of disease.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    .....but are these creatures classify as coliform or E.coli ? #:-s

    hahahaha.....

    Cheers
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    A prazi bath in theory works to eliminate flukes somewhat but would not work effectively in koi pond situation. Simply because for the flukes in the pond to be killed it has to feed on the treated koi. On an infected pond , the Prazi effective dose in koi body tissue ( after prazi bath) may not be enough to last the whole lifecycle of the fluke bearing in mind the egg layers. That's why Bayer's treatment for helminths ie Hadaclean , via 3-5 days feeding and to last for many weeks. There are many other antihelmintics out there that are more cost effective for kois like mebendazole ( in Supaverm) and Flubendazole (Flubenol) with much better mode of action :-D

    ts
  • ShukriShukri April 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro TS,
    Hadaclean only has 5% Prazi. In the treatment of Flukes, I use 3-5 grams (of pure Praziquantel) per 1 metric ton of water. I let the Prazi soak in the pond for 5 to 7 days. There is no need to change water after the treated period. Normally, I will use the microscope to view the Flukes before and after treatment. I will do a second dosage either 1 or 2 weeks after the first treatment. This is to kill what ever new hatching after the 1st dosage period. From my experience, some kois will excrete large worms that are present in their digestive system.

    Since it is difficult to dissolve the Prazi flakes in the water, I use Proform C as the dissolving agent. It works like a charm........
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-04-14 08:59:44 pm
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Shukri,

    Letting the koi soak in the Prazi would be the most effective way of delivery but also the most costly :O . For my 60 ton , cost would be abt RM600, one dose. Hadaclean's method is via feeding over 3-5 days and for few weeks thereafter. Slow not so effective if kois are not eating. On 2nd dose of pure prazi, best if on 5th day after first dose to kill the hatchling, in view of its life cycle, and final dose on day 9 , in view of our water temp. From my reading , Flubenol another dewormer , claims to kill all including eggs in one dose. This is what they say abt Prazi too not too long ago , now at least 2 , better 3 dose :-)) . Nowadays most Prazi are generics from China , no longer from Bayer.

    Just to share , i confirm my first flukey using the microscope too , the eye spots was unmistakably gill fluke. Flukes are my favourite parasite for the sleepless night it gave me sometime back and still do whenever i got new kois. So i had read up on them quite extensively, understanding its lifecycle is key to kill gill flukes Dactylogyrus. The other one, skin fluke Gyrodactylus is easier but equally dangerous as its a lifebearer so infestation is super fast.

    ts
  • ShukriShukri April 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro TS,
    I used to order the Prazi directly from the US, too expensive la for me. Nowadays, I source locally, but still effective. You are correct, without the microscope, there is no way of confirming. One thing I found out personally though, both types of flukes that you have mentioned are found in the gills (the ones with the fangs outside and sucker inside, as well as the sucker on the outside and fangs inside). At first I thought it was an isolated case, but apparently after checking with subject matter experts, it is true. However one lays eggs in the pond and the other on the body or inside the gills and I do not remember which one.

    I have had success many times with what I have done i.e. with 3-5 grams Prazi flakes per metric ton of water. Somehow, I have stayed away from Supaverm as I have read many negative stories about the medication. And the end of the day, what really work matters most.

    I agree with you, with Prazi the issue is the cost. But then again, most of us will do what it takes to get our kois a clean Bill of Health.

    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Brothers Shukri & lauts

    Wah!!! Reading also scare already.....

    Brothers where can I buy Flubenol 15 leh? Can get at koi dealers place or need to special order?

    What are the symptoms like?

    Please advise.

    Tq

    cheers
  • HDCuHDCu April 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Interesting.

    so one can check for flukes under microscope but what about the other intestinal parasites?

    I know this question seem stupid but is there no such vaccine for kois like dewormer we give to our pet dogs and cats as preventive measures.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-04-15 02:21:17 am
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Prazi ( Dronsit), Flubendazole (Flubenol) , Supaverm ( Mebendazole) actually are dewormer for dogs, human, and kois too. I use it during QT sometimes with MGF to clear off external and internal parasite. I am told it is good practice to deworm once a year , i use feed with Hadaclean for this purpose.

    ts
  • harryyewharryyew April 2012
    Posts: 396
    Good morning Bro lauts


    May I know how you mix the Hadaclean with the food and how do you know the dosage to mix?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Cheers
  • lautslauts April 2012
    Posts: 1,248
    Instruction is given with the Hadaclean. I dilute powder Hadaclean and throw in the pellets to soak it up. Then feed to koi.

    ts

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