Fishless cycle to combat and end NPS quicker while making it totally safe.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    In a few weeks, my new pond will be complete and I will eventually transfer my kois from the quarantine pond to the new pond.

    In the meantime for months while the new pond is being built, the quarantine tank where the kois are still growing exceptional have finished cycled enough Siporax filter medium that will be eventually transfered to the bakki shower setup of the new pond.

    Basically my plan is when the new pond is complete, I will do a fishless cycle by doing the following:
    1. I will transfer 2 tons of quarantine water and mix with 20 ton new pond water(after it has been dechlorinated) and setting up the jap matt filters.
    2. I will transfer some organic waste from settlement chamber in quarantine filter to settlement area of new pond filter.
    3. I will run the pump and aeration of the new pond without any fish.
    4. I will then put a strong ammonia hydroxide drip to the new pond upto 5ppm to immediately build up strong colony of nitrosomas bacteria while monitoring that the PH will not go above 9( by controlling ammonia)but not below 7( by adding baking soda)
    5. I will let ammonia level reach dangerous levels without any water change or salting the pond or putting any nitrifying bacteria.
    6. As soon as nitrosomas bacteria colony brings down ammonia levels to the point that it can handle enough ammonia introduction, nitrobacter colony will multiple and nitrite levels will increase.
    7. I will wait until nitrite levels becomes very low which should be quicker as there is no water change and continuous feeding of ammonia to grow the nitrosomas and nitrobacter colony.
    8. I will monitor then nitrate levels which I plan to reduce by doing partial water change and adding some salt and putting the cultured glass sintered rings to the bakki while stopping the ammonia hydroxide drip.
    9. I will then transfer three kois per day and feed regularly.

    So what do you think? Will it work?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-07-16 07:12:45 pm
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Sounds like a Plan...........update us then if things are according to plan or otherwise. Good luck bro.........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Shukri @ Mr. Forum Administrator,

    Is this forum capable of storing archive or discussions as notes? The quarantine steps as posted by bro HDCu above is a good example of something we might want to archive and retrieve later for reference. Another example is the note you posted on the nitrifying bacteria earlier today in another thread. If we have the archive system with proper filing folders, it will be easier than having to sieve thru thousands and thousand of postings to find all these useful references. Just my suggestion.

    Thanks.
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro pandai,
    Point taken. I will discuss with the application designer, writer and programmer. In the mean time, you can always use the 'SEARCH' column on the upper right hand side.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2012-07-16 10:46:31 pm
  • weihanweihan July 2012
    Posts: 318
    Bro there is a bookmark button, point your mouse to the right side of the title of the discussion, that's it.
  • ShukriShukri July 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Thanks bro weihan for pointing out........forgot about the Bookmark....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • weihanweihan July 2012
    Posts: 318
    Bro Shukri, maybe the button is not obvious, can make it visible maybe?
  • pandaipandai July 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    How do you do that on iPad?
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar July 2012
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro,
    You can do that once installed Google Chrome
  • idrisidris July 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro hdcu..I still believe my way facing NPS using tilapia fish is still the easyist way...after soaking the pond with vinegar...fill up new water, put tilapia fish...feed a lot...don't change any water ang just let the nature do its job coz in few days time your NPS is over...drain all your pond water except filter chamber...fill up new water, put anti chlorine and let the system run for another night and boom..u can put as much koi as you want...I believe this method is very easy for those who don't have luxury time to monitor everything everyday...but then this is my opinion bro...

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/1422/short-cut-how-we-deal-with-new-pond-syndrome/#Item_23
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Idris,

    I do think your method is quite effective as you have proven plus you were able to have grill tilapia also. hehe.

    The fishless cycle is not entirely new as it has been successfully done in aquarium setup. A 20 ton pond is just a giant aquarium as well as such I do think it will work as well.

    The advantage of a fishless cycle is that
    1. you dont need to get a sacrifice test fish whether it be tilapia or cheap test koi
    2. you dont build up any phosphate or dissolved organics that lead to green water
    3. ammonia hydroxide is much cheaper than koi food
    4. nitrobacter and nitrosomas bacteria should grow fast as addition of ammonia is direct and not through breakdown of food by fish.

  • idrisidris July 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    ok bro HDCU..got your point...less cost but time consuming...please update bro on the progress..cant wait to see a video on your new pond...hehe
  • david3333david3333 July 2012
    Posts: 28
    HDCu,
    Your plan sounded complicated, with all those technical jargon. I am also preparing my new pond and I did not know it is so complicate, so many stages. I
  • HDCuHDCu July 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro David3333

    My plan is an experiment so I can skip NPS and green water. Its been done before in aquarium setups and I dont see why it cant be done in a 20 ton pond. The only important thing in the plan is the introduction of ammonia hydroxide and some old water from my quarantine pond to feed the growth of good bacteria.

    However, you can do the simplest way to introduce kois to your new pond. Just put them in, put 0.3percent salt, feed gradually until your pond filter matures while testing the water parameters. The cycle should take around a month to finish.
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Today, I refilled my new pond with 20 tons of water. I then placed 140 grams of sodium thiosulfate to dechlorinate. I then placed 150 grams of strong ammonia water into the pond(without any fish). After two hours tested the water and the reading was 7.4 Ph and as expected NH4 in the water is now 2mg/l with free toxic ammonia at 0.03. I also transferred two small net sacks of culture bioballs from the QT tank and placed it in the settlement chamber to jump start the growth of bacteria. Hopefully in three days the ammonia eating bacteria would populate the filter media so that they can produce nitrites. Will seed more strong ammonia water tomorrow.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-09-04 06:10:20 pm
  • pandaipandai September 2012
    Posts: 1,083
    Try peeing in the pond... :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hehe. It would take two liters of pee for an equivalent of 150 ml of ammonia water. It would turn the pond yellowish. Reminds me of the time years ago why some of my garden plants were slowly dying until I found out the maid was collecting her urine everyday and dumping it on the plants. :-))
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,

    Using fishless cycle require a lot of work and constant water parameter measure. When you nitrosomonas start to cultured, any ammonia will converted to nitrite at very fast time. When not measure properly, any lack of ammonia mean no food source for nitrosomonas and it will die.

    Been done this before on aquarium and pond, and unless can monitor it 24 hours, i find it too troublesome. NPS is something to scare new hobbyist,with proper start up, it can easily done. The main problem is usually a hobbyist cannot wait to start feeding, and dump every food when fish comeasking for food and lazy to measure water parameter.

    Greenwater is easily combating using UVC, and cloudy water is because lack of MF, not because of NPS. If your filtration is done right, your water will always clear like the first time you put water. Your biological filter should be mature in maximum 2 weeks times.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    Actually im not scared to put my existing kois in the new pond. Its just that the end of the chinese ghost month is till September 15 and I will be traveling for the next five days after day. Because of this I am not allowed by HM and for practical reasons to put my existing kois from the QT tank in the new pond yet. In the meantime, I am taking this opportunity to do the fishless cycle to mature the pond and filters.

    In terms of work, I think on the contrary, it is the opposite. I dont need to put any zeolite ,salt or change water during the cycle or worst worry any fish flashing or parking. I have lots of access to cheap ammonia hydroxide and have some test kit that need to be used or else it mght expire. After the initial dose to 2mg/l of NH4 for the first day, I will just put an ammonia drip to the pond to feed and culture good bacteria. I will then wait for nitrite level to reach wine red in the testing and then wait for it to slowly and surely drop while nitrate level go up to above 20ppm. I will then do a 30 percent water change to reduce nitrate levels. Afterwhich I will put the culture glass sintered media which will control the nitrate level and do regular water change along with transfering the existing kois in the QT to the new established pond.

    My new pond has no UV setup. I believe I can go without any UV in my new outdoor pond setup.
  • idrisidris September 2012
    Posts: 1,182
    so i guess bro HDCU, you way to combat NPS is the best for your situation. hope it will mature fast enough...on my opinion, using tilapia still the best in any situation...just feed and feed until stable..no water change, no need to check water parameter..so what else is the constrain?hehe
  • ShukriShukri September 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Next time for me, when I built a new pond, I am planning to use a few Aropaimas for the NPS stage.......because I am thinking of 10,000 ton pond....... :-)) :-)) :-)) :^o
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  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro Shukri,
    Give another aligator spatula, red tail catfish, mekong catfish, then we have a fishing pond
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • ShukriShukri September 2012
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Harry,
    Ya............hahahahaha! Then I can charge $$$ per hour of fishing....... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MikeMike September 2012
    Posts: 346
    Bro Shukri,

    My initial plan for my pond is to have two arapaima, somehow along the way by the nature of the said fish, they jump out one after another and fly back to amazon. :-S

    I've been having them since they are 4" until 2'+ in length before they depart back home.
    Post edited by Mike at 2012-09-07 04:00:54 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    My friend own a few pcs 1,5m arapaima in his mudpond. But i hear in Johor have 2m+ arapaima
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    I am happy to report that I am almost done with my fishless new pond cycling experiment. Reading of ammonia now has gone done to 0ppm from a dangerous high above 5 ppm. Nitrite is now at 1 ppm from from wine red 5 ppm. Nitrate is now at a healthy 10 ppm. Water is crystal clear. No water change nor any application of salt so far. KH is around above 50 ppm. TDS is at normal 75. PH is at 7.15. Water temp is at 27.4C. So far except for the slight nitrite reading, all the water parameters are exactly the same as in my QT pond where all my kois are still staying. I will be now reducing feeding the kois in preparation of transfer. Im still thinking whether to salt the pond a little.

    So far I just used 350grams of ammonia hydroxide, 20 liters of dirty Water from QT filter settlement, 140 grams of sodium thiosulfate to dechlorinate the new water, and a small bottle of Stress Zyme.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,

    Sodium Thiosulpahte is also release ammonia. Now, how much ammonia you add daily?
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • MikeMike September 2012
    Posts: 346
    Wow, 140g of ST is quite a fair bit. How big is your new pond HDCu.
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,
    The sodium thiosulfate was intentionally placed to dechlorinate new water with chlorine and add a liitle ammonia( although I did test after putting it and ammonia increase is not much detected.
    140 grams of ammonia hydroxide brought up the Ammonia levels to 2.5ppm. added another 140 grams and ammonia readings was at 5ppm. After a few days, ammonia level went done to 2ppm but nitrite level was still at 1ppm so I added 20 liters of water from QT tank with organic waste into new pond filter chamber along with uncleaned two sacks of bioballs from QT tank then added additional 35g of ammonia hydroxide to bring up ammonia levels to 4 ppm again. I then added a small bottle of stresszyme to decompose the added organic waste faster. after a few days, I Added a few more ammonia until nitrite reading reached above 5 ppm. Nitrite reading now has dropped to 1 ppm with a reading of 10ppm of nitrate and zero ammonia levels already. This means my filters are almost mature enough with enough nitrobacter and nitrosomas bacteria and some facultative bacteria present.

    Once I transfer the kois to the new pond, I am also transfering 80 liters of cultured siporax rings in the bakki shower. I will then activate the six fans to hopefully lower the pond water temperature.

    Bro Mike,

    140g is good for 2ppm of chlorine in 20 tons of tap chlorinated water
  • mangkellmangkell September 2012
    Posts: 1,221
    Bro @HDCu,

    When will the FATS be running in full swing?

    When can we get the result of your temperature??? :-??
    Mickeyko Ducati-Kujamon Chagreemon Brabus#Sexy-Robust
    Post edited by mangkell at 2012-09-23 06:37:45 pm
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    bro Mangkell,

    I will install it come october. I already have 12 fans now.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Do u still add ammonia after your ammonia reading 0, before you put fish in ur pond? How much?
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    For now Im not adding anymore ammonia as I do not want an ammonia spike again that will prolong the cycle. Im just not draining the settlement area or cleaning the brushes so that there are still little ammonia released from the transplanted organic waste to the filter chamber. Tomorrow, I will add another 20 liters of Qt water with organic waste to the new pond settlement chamber and see if there will be any ammonia spike


  • ikankoikauikankoikau September 2012
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro HDCu,

    Thanks for updating the progress fishless method to overcome NPS. I hope you will get good end result. For this method, if it can work well, it will be another method to overcome NPS.

    Using chemical or orther method(including peeing:-) ) beside normal method of using fishes to stabilize a pond, has been carried out by many hobbyist before. It can be done but it will take longer time for sure. For hobbyist who are not in hurry to release their kois or having their kois at dealer"s pond, this method can be done. As for you, I think it has been 20 days(from 4th Sept) since you have started adding Ammonia Hydroxide or strong Ammonia water with a few other steps/effort like transfering water and media from QT. Maybe it will take a few more days or a week for your pond to stabilize fully.

    Since you are experimenting this method, it's good for you to finish the whole process. It will give good information to us. Actually, once the Ammonia is zero, hobbyist can safely introduce their fish with salt level around 0.2-0.3% to offset the Nitrite. But one thing you got to consider bro HDCu, organic waste from the fishes and pond(for Ammonia and Nitrite) and chemically added will be different. How much you added the chemical and how much the kois actually producing will also require some fine tuning by the filtration system and pond.

    On top of that, in our pond eco system, there will always be good, bad and neutral bacteria. Chemical based to stabilize a pond will have different kind of total or types of bacteria compared to natural way of stabilizing. Which means, the newly added kois will have to adapt to this new serounding of eco system eventhough with the absent of Ammonia and Nitrite. There a lot of other things in the water which cannot be tested with our test meters. To identify the bacteria present in the pond will be a good example.

    When you have introduced the kois into the pond, it will be very crutial to observe the kois behaviour. Your correct feedback will be very important so that other hobbyist who opt to try this method can get the benefit or take any precaution if needed. In term of time, as expected, it will not be as fast as normal method but safe for the koi.

    Keep up the good experiment bro and keep us update (Y)

    Regards
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Ikankoikau,

    Thank you for the comment. i will continue to update the progress of my experiment.

    I have to note to those who are following this thread that fishless cycle in order to work one needs enough filter medium for slow growing nitrobacter and nitrosomas bacteria to grow. Also, based on my research theses bacteria takes 18 hours to multiply, ample aeration, enough ammonia, warm water and at least 50ppm of carbonate alkalinity to multiply. Normally, real cycle time that is safe without resulting in green water is usually around 45 days.

    You are correct in saying that once ammonia falls to zero and even with high nitrite, fish can be safely entered with the condition that pond need to be salted.

    However, as I am in no rush, I want nitrite levels to drop to zero so that I dont need to salt the pond anymore or just salt at very low levels(0.1). Salt increase the TDS of the water and it takes a long time for the tds to drop needing multiple water top offs. Salt also causes foaming. Interestingly, despite applying 460 liters of air per minute to the pond and filter and using airtubes placed on the sides and applying bakki shower, pond is very thin, transparent and there is very minimal foaming or even surface water turbulence.

    Meanwhile I have two more experiment to do. One is the effectivity of the FATS(fan assisted trickle shower) and how to determine if the vitamin C. in the koi food is no good anymore.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,

    Without any addition of ammonia, can the nitrosomonas lack of food source and die? What i was doing in aquarium is to maintain my ammonia @2ppm until nitrite reach zero, nitrate will rise accordingly, and do waterchange if nitrate too high (about 25ppm).

    When nitrite drop to zero, i still give last ammonia around 2ppm, to make sure filter can handle minimum 2ppm of ammonia, and when ammonia drop to zero, i immediately put fishes inside to make sure continous supply of ammonia, slightly feeding and gradually increase based on waater testing.

    But i think, it to troublesome due to measure it constantly few times a day, and it is quite troublesome if done in cust pond. Now the bacteria starter is available, many goodd product available. I normally start filtration with fishes, all fish are fasting due to starting period for 1 week to 10days. Do automatic waterchange of 20% perdays (divide to few time perday). My worker will come every morning to measure water parameter and add another dose of bacteria starter. Normally this process till take 1-2 weeks.

    Ammonia remover is always standby just in case, zeolite is sometime use to buffer ammonia level. I had done it a lot and so far never fail.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    You are correct that without ammonia nitrosomas population will get reduce that is why I seed organic waste into settlement area. I have now added also 20 grams of ammonia to pond to increase ammonia levels. Hopefully by the end of this week nitrite levels will go down to zero and nitrate levels to 20 ppm. HM look at feng sui calendar and told me I can now put fish by sept 27 or else wait for Oct 4. Dont ask me why I need to listen to HM. O:)
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Hahahahahaha, just follow HM instruction and have peace of mind. Last year doing renovation, the owner is new to fengshui, pond wide size was made is 4m, when know fengshui ask to add another brick layer to make it 3,88m ;).

    Do you adding any bacteria starter? Actually adding some your bio media will speed up you filtration maturity process.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,.

    I just added one bottle of API stress zyme and two sacks of uncleaned culture bioballs on the settlement chamber.

    Speaking of feng sui, My mother told me not to be build six feet deep beause of the term "six feet under". Now when people ask how deep I say the truth five feet ten inches at deepest point. haha. My pond width is also 3.950 meters. :-))
    Post edited by HDCu at 2012-09-24 02:16:07 pm
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,

    Familiar with six feet under, and to tell the truth this is a favorite pond depth long time ago. From a few years back until now, my deepest pond made was 1,5m, and getting shallower and shallower.
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • HDCuHDCu September 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harry,

    On my next pond build slated for next year, I plan to go back to 1.2 meter depth but at 4x turnover.
  • harry_luhurharry_luhur September 2012
    Posts: 808
    Bro HDCu,

    If you keep building pond and buying kois, just a matter of time before you become koi dealer. :)
    Regards,

    Harry Luhur
  • NeliNeli October 2012
    Posts: 1,205
    Bro @HDCu,
    How is the fishnets cycle doing? Did u put the fish in? How is it?
  • HDCuHDCu October 2012
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Sis Neli,

    The fishless cycle was a success. There was no greening or clouding of the water during and after the kois were placed in. When the six nisais were placed there was a slight increase in ammonia reading as expected which disappeared in two days. After three days of the kois staying in the new pond, I resumed feeding to the kois.

    Readings now are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate below 10, TDS at 65
  • niveknivek October 2012
    Posts: 1,251
    Congrats on the experiment :)


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