Chiller for koi pond
  • koikichivnkoikichivn February 2013
    Posts: 77
    Hello sifu and sis

    I believe many of Malaysian Koi hobbyist is using the chiller for your pond, and I would like to listen your experience about
    - what brand and model do you use ?
    - anyone uses room-airconditioner as a chiller?
    - how much hp shall you need for 15-tons-pond?
    - how much do you pay for electric bill just for the chiller?
    - how improvement does the kois get after installing chiller?

    Sorry for too many question but I want to learn about this matter, not many hobbyist inVietnam uses chiller for koi pond

    Thank you and best regards

  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Chiller has become part of our koi-pond set up for serious hobbyist. Is the improvement on koi justified to pay a higher electricity bill? Is it worth getting one? Pls comments for those who have one!!
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Since I have been using a chiller for 2 years now, let me start............

    Yes, chillers have been part of this koi hobby. Is the improvement of the koi versus the higher electricity bill............. justified? A very good question indeed......

    For a person like me that love the living jewels, would like my kois to look best possible, and enter my kois in Shows, and would want to win the big and the major prices...... then having a chiller is not an option. It is mandatory. The body, the color, skin quality and the shine improves with chilled water. Nishikigois are indegenious fishes of Japan, and Japan being in the northern part of the globe, has cold and cool weather. So if we can mimick the water condition, quality & temperature, the kois will thrive better.

    If you have that extra funds, if you have that passion, and you want to win in Shows, then a chiller is not an option.
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  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro shukri,

    I can understand that the shine and appetite of a koi will be better if raised in 24c as compared to one raised in 29 c. But what about one raised in 26c to one raised in 24c. Is the shine level significantly different? Assuming the kois shine improve by 10 percent with a chiller, wouldnt it be better to just get a koi that would have better body, great appetite and have more shine to begin with albeit with a more higher price tag instead of getting a cheaper one and spending a lot on electricity with a chiller. For example, in our country where we have a very high rate of electricity, the savings that i would probably incur if i dont use a chiller 24/7 for one whole year can probably buy me a higher quality koi. I can also use the savings to rent a chiller pond for a month at lower temperature without much feeding before a koi show to condition ONLY kois that would be competing or those keeper kois that would need a proper rest cooling period. I dont see how a chiller set at 24c can let the koi rest when that temperature makes the metabolism of the koi optimal. With regards to growth i do not believe yet that a koi raised in a 24 c environment would grow faster or more girthier as one grown in a 26c environment. I believe there are a lot of factors to consider aside from temperature when one talks about better growth or better skin condition. For one koi keeping skills and the quality of the koi food and water does play also a big part of the equation.

    I do however would agree if your total koi value in your pond is very high (example if each koi cost 500000 yen or more) then electricity cost and cost of a chiller is immaterial.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-11-14 03:56:56 pm
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro HDCu,
    You surely make a lot of assumptions, and making generalization. I was responding to a question on the justification of a chiller versus none. Not about a chilling situation of one using 26 degrees versus 24 degrees. In Malaysia (I do not know about in the Phillipines), without a chiller, the surface water temperature is 30 degrees celcius. And compare 30 degrees to my chilled pond water of 21 degrees. I am talking about the same quality kois, in a chilled pond versus the same kois in a non chilled pond, not like what you are saying.

    Well, at the end of the day, we will have to talk about our experience. In grooming my 62cm Kujaku, in a 21 degrees water, feeding with Kokusai pellets for 3 months, this Kujaku won the Grand Champion in the Non Gosanke category, in the previous Shinkokai Wakagoi Malaysia 2013. The shine and the color were incredible, stout body for a male fish and the netting excellent. The skin quality was good. All these was attributed and further enhanced by the chilled water. Why stout body, because I believe due to the chilled water, the food has been converted to stored fats, thus the fish is bulkier...............
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  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    When looking back at the explanation...yes bro shukri answer based on question..and its not comparison between koi raised in 26 deg c condition and 24 deg c condition...bro hdcu, I believe u comparing it 26 deg c based on ur FATS performance.

    Anyway...theres nowhere in the text book saying only 500k yen above koi can only be justified to use a chiller...I hav 7 koi in my pond at the moment...4 of them is karashi n chagoi and it didnt cost me more then 1000 ringgit per pc...so its just n assumption based on ur comment...

    The engineers have design the chiller to gav a peice of mind to the user..in any condition wheres the ambient temperature probably fluctuate from 27 to 35 deg c, pond temparature still maintain at what ever deg u set ur chiller...

    So if u want ur koi to be looking good, and u have the budget then its no prob to hav chiller...The problem come when u have limited budget and start designing something more cheaper but practically almost work like a chiller. Its work like many hav use spray bar....but after that start comparing with the chiller by saying its expensive, electricity bill high...whats the point actually...

    Like ur suggestion to rent a chiller pond before show. ..dont u think thats stressfull to the koi? Being transport here and there and we also could not guarantee the chiller pond that we rent is safe... just IMHO...
  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117


    As you know many alternative methods of cooling to 26c and below in cooler months is easily possible. This includes bakki, spray bar, pergoda, fans, etc. Like I have said before once temperature reaches above 28c appetite slows down while shine also goes down depending on the bloodline. I agree with you 100% that a koi grown in a 21c will of course be better than one grown in 30c. But what about a koi grown at 26c without chiller and then spends only a month at a small chill pond that consumes less electricity but set at 18 to 20c to finish for a koi show? Better, same, or worst?

    There are of course several varieties that do much better in colder water such as kujaku, goshiki and most metallic varieties where shine do matter a lot. Kujaku in particular normally excel before it reaches 70cm after which its shine will go down albeit faster in warmer waters of course. Goshiki will have problem with sumi development as it grows older with any water above 25c for a long time. On the other hand, a shiro utsuri and tancho showa with the right qualities regardless they are grown in a chiller or bakki pond are both high contender for non gosanke GC in 70bu above.

    With regards to male koi having a disadvantage in a warmer environment in bulking is absolutely true IMO. However it does not follow that all male koi will bulk up or get thin in cold or warm water. Certain varieties,bloodline and specific male koi do also bulk up especially if they eat like a female. If they eat like a male or if a female eat like a timid male even if you use a chiller the kois behaviour will not necessarily 100% improve. I have an ISA 68cm male showa that eats like a hungry female and really easy to bulk up if i want to.



  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    . I agree with you 100% that a koi grown in a 21c will of course be better than one grown in 30c. But what about a koi grown at 26c without chiller and then spends only a month at a small chill pond that consumes less electricity but set at 18 to 20c to finish for a koi show? Better, same, or worst?

    Have u done it before bro? Because I think most of us never done it...it can only done by experiment and practically...u asked a question that prople cant possibly gav the right answer and only based on assumption..so whats the point of the question. Unless u had done urself then its worth to share the experience bro..I may follow u if its benefit...
  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Idris,

    We have the second highest electricity rates in Asia second only to Japan and electricity rates are not at all fixed and rise once in awhile. What you may be paying rates on Malaysia we will be probably paying almost double. In our country, its very rare to for a hobbyist to install a chiller not because a chiller unit is expensive but because the cost of running a chiller for a big pond would be much more expensive. Serious consideration therefore in our part needs to be studied before many of our koi kichi brothers adapt the need for a chiller. So far those who have chillers installed are the dealers and the ultra high end collectors of very expensive gosankes. The rest are already contended with bakki showers that can also produce water temperature as low as 24c during colder months of the year.

    I am not sure about the possible good effects of a chagoi or non metallic one color varieties with using a chiller. I do know there are also different price range of these varieties based on quality and would assume if you get one priced by breeder because he feels its a better quality specimen as compared to a cheaper one, the higher quality one will still excel versus the lower quality one that has been raised in a pond with chiller.

    The same applies with nongosanke and other metallic varieties that enter shows. In fact some just buy a koi from japan before a show and leave it to the dealers care without need to use a chiller to condition the koi for the whole year.

    Like i said before, a chiller may give a hobbyist who shows an advantage but its not at all an absolute advantagem
  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    We talk about giving a four season environment like in Japan but are we giving them the same environment when many chiller hobbyist set their temperature at 24 or 25 c so they can maximize feeding all year round. However, in a four season environment water does drop below hibernation point and it is during this period very little feeding is given in order to consolidate the skin, bring out the shine and reabsorb some of the eggs to promote growth and appetite. During summer time temperature can reach above 25 c and it during this time they grow big but their skin condition gets stretch. Once water slowly cools down the kois skin and shine improves.

    How about if you buy a well endowed female with thick beautiful skin with luster. You grow it just enough during the summer and you are able to cool the water to around a comfortable 26C-27.5c. Once it nears the cooler months of lets say 24c -26c s you feed less all to let the skin consolidate a bit and improve the skin. You are able to maintain the girth. Come the coldest time of the year, you transfer some of the koi to a smaller chill pond where you deliberately slowly lower the pond water to as low as 18C with no feeding therefore you stop the koi from growing, save on food, reduce just a little girth and bring out the shine and color of the koi. This is the opposite of what they do i japan where once the cold front arrives they bring in the koi in heated greenhouse. Of course some whose facilities are limited bring in only the best kois indoor as these would command a better profit.
  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    ok bro HDCU.. now understand what u trying to deliver...this make my understanding better...thanks for the lesson... (Y)
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Thank you brothers for making your vital points.. In the context of climate in Malaysia, it is true that water temp goes up to 29 degree C and even higher at times.

    Inviting brothers to chip in your opinion, to ensure that the use of chiller really benefits the pond/koi and its worth spending the bucks on the monthly electricity bill.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Another advantage of chilled water e.g at 21 degrees if that fishes movement are slower, and I have noticed that they eat lesser at these temperature. But I have also noticed that the fishes bulked more. Why? I guess that one explanation is that the food eaten is converted to fat, as the water temperature signals the coming of winter, so the fishes stored the consumed food into fats i.e. to buffer for energy during the winter months during hybernation...... kind of trick the fishes actually.

    Overall, chilled water gives character to the kois' skin..........

    About whether average kois performed better in chilled water versus non chilled. Of course the ones in the chilled water will have better quality, but is this quality good enough for Shows? Don't know, probably not! Do we want to invest in a chiller for our average kois? Most probably not.

    Whether to invest in a chiller or not, at the end of the day, boils down to $$$! Probably, if a person has in door pond or a pond that can be contained, air conditioning is another worthwhile alternative. If room temperature is set at 20 degrees, I suspect that the temperature of the pond water will be very close to the set temperature.....

    Bro HDCu, why is the electricity in the Phillipines real high? Just curious.........
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  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Another that I have noticed over the years............. Kois skin quality tend to degrade faster in the warm temperatures as compared to lower temperatures. Something for all of us to think about.
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  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Shukri,

    The reason why our electricity rates are expensive is a complex one. Heres a short video that explains this.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=di08h6bObyw

    With regards to whether a kois skin tend to degrade faster in warmer water temperature, I agree on this partly only. For lower quality skin koi, the degradation is faster. For example, a koi with not so good skin and shine is raised in warmer temperature thereby experiencing growth while its skin(beni, sumi) cannot follow and its get stretch too much to become very thin. If the color is not provided some adequate time to consolidate, the skin would look older faster over time. The opposite follows that a koi that has been continuously kept in cold water temperature and fed little on to grow might have better looking skin that will last longer. Color nutrients also last longer in the skin in lower water temperatures thereby giving them more advantage. On the down side, they would also grow at a much slower rate. There are of course some rare exceptional koi with very good skin and shine that would last longer. Of course, given a "rest cooling period" will always be a good thing.

    The term " not to push the growth of a koi to prevent premature aging" does apply to different temperatures but it is harder to resist not to feed to hungry koi that easily loose girth in warmer water temperature. At 21 C one have the advantage of feeding little to slow down growth a little, improving the skin and shine without reducing the some girth.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-11-14 08:21:41 pm
  • jeejee November 2013
    Posts: 20
    Hi Bro's,
    Sorry for chip in. my question might be quite out of topic. Just wonder why local koi from china don't have the same quality as Japanese. Don't they have the same temperature and season?
    Just a quires from a newbie.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahahaha........... Need the Sifus that have experiences with Chinese Kois to be able to give the 2 cents worth!
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  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Farms in china operate with a different mentality. Mass production is the norm. I have seen/heard they keep 90 percent of their fly. Each fly, when grown can sell for few bucks. The nicer ones will worth more of course. .
    Post edited by urbaneffects at 2013-11-14 10:25:45 pm
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahahaha............. sounded like an amateur hobbyist breeder that I used to know. Can't mentioned names.............. :p
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2013-11-14 10:59:14 pm
  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    I cannot imagine how you can keep 90 percent of the offspring without compromising the best development of the tategois. Many smaller niigata breeders survive until now because they keep their overhead small using very good oyagois and culling heavily while selling only their very best pick at the a very good margin.
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Bro .shukri
    Once the chilled water is at 21 degree, logic tells me that in malaysia climate, setup like bakki shower becomes a liability cause the chilled water would have bigger contact with warmer air in the shower, causing water temp to go up.

    In the malaysia context, would that mean a chilled pond should avoid something like a bakki shower that may cause water temp to move upward, defeat the purpose of having a chiller.?
    Post edited by urbaneffects at 2013-11-15 10:21:49 am
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Bro HDCU

    Thats why the differnce lies in the mentality. Seen hundred of thousands tosai in mud pond. Due to the extreme extreme high density, em bac liquid got dump each day to contain the ammonia. If each koi sells a dollar, thats few hundred thousand k. Which is good for business too..quality never a concern.

    Post edited by urbaneffects at 2013-11-15 10:31:31 am
  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2013
    Posts: 376
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  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro @Nocturnal,

    Can I know the brand And how many Watts is the chiller that you are using. What is the normal set temperature? How many hours a day does your chiller activate in your observation.

    Im planning a new smaller pond setup of around eight to ten tons with a chiller setup and without any bakki. Your data would be most helpful.
  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    Bro..u are right...before I install my chiller..I had remove the bakki shower
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Bro Idris

    You had your chiller for few months now I presume. Is there any visible improvement? Hope u dont mind sharing.. Thanks
  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2013
    Posts: 376
    Bro HDCu :)

    i'm using a modified system, 3hp 30,000btu air con compressor to chill the pond.
    as u know, flow thru cooling coil, incoming water temp, ambient temp, daily amounts of water change, shades are among the major contribution to dictate the daily running hours of the chiller.

    my water temp b4 chiller is 28-33c
    incoming water temp 27-30c
    with water flow thru the cooling coil at est 7000l/ph, to achieve 24c the chiller will run less than 3 hours daily with my 10-20% daily water change.
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects November 2013
    Posts: 134
    Bro. 24c with less than 3 hour runing is affortable elec consumption. Is 24c good enough to see thr improvement in koi? Thank you for sharing yr pond pic. (*)
    Post edited by urbaneffects at 2013-11-15 05:02:54 pm
  • lautslauts November 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    I think we are over emphasizing on importance of having a chiller. Recently i have a newbie
    visiting me with intention to acquire. Then he ask , " i don't have chiller to keep kois" Apparently his reading is chiller is a necessity. For me it should be for the advanced , to give you advantage during a show. If your water maintenance is below std , chiller can't do much.

    ts
  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    I'm so sad, cannot afford to maintain a chiller :( This weekend must hentam TOTO.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Whether to acquire a chiller or otherwise, is a conscious decision that need to be thought through carefully. If a sweeping statement that chillers are needed and compulsory for a Koi pond, I would have to disagree with this statement. Also if a person say that one has to have a pond in order to appreciate the hobby, I would also have to disagree with this statement. Kois can be kept in large aquarium, and they will be sufficient and fine.

    First and foremost, chillers are for those that can afford the monthly overhead (and do not mind spending the extra cost), and are motivated to have their kois to be in the best condition, so that their kois can compete in Shows.

    From my observations, the quality of kois in Malaysia deteriorate a lot faster in the normal water temperature as compared to those that are kept in chilled water. So if the kois are 5 figures a piece, then I believe a chiller is not an option.

    For those that are concerned, please note that the majority of the hobbyist are not using any chiller what so ever, and they are fine and happy........ :)
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  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2013
    Posts: 376
    Bro Urbaneffects :)

    after confirming again with the missus, i gave a wrong data lah :"> very2 sorry!
    less than 3 hour is at 25c, at 24c it's near to 4 hours but still in my means :)
    it is very much to do with my small water volume (10T) vs big chiller hp. that is why i told Bro Idris to get a bigger hp model when he wants to get his :)

    Abang Lau :)

    long time no speak ya? :)
    we're a serious koi hobbyist forum. i don't think we're over emphasizing on chiller use, we're saying that kois do well in cooler water.
    i like what ur doing with ur pond, spray bars did the job to lower ur temp & u said so yourself the kois improved. i wish i can do that to my pond but with a limited surface area, hard to view the kois. bakki in my terrace house will get me stares from my immediate neighbors plus there are limitations how low can temp go with the two options.

    there's a montain in Kluang (Gunung Lambak) & the residents staying nearby get access to the cooler mountain water (ard 23-25c the last i tested ). i wish i have the means to stay there to have the access to the cold rich mineral mountain water, don't think i need a chiller if i did :)
    we're constantly finding ways to have the best environment for our kois.
    kois are hardy, they do survive in the hottest temp of our climate, the vast range of water parameters etc. though chilled water is not a necessity, if the parameter are in the gd levels, i'm sure u will agree that the ones kept in cooler water thrive compared to the ones in our hot climate water temp.

  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2013
    Posts: 376
    Bro Kevin :D

    i used to hentam TOTO too, want to buy a land at the foot of the mountain & build a house with a nice pond :D
    end up sakit kepala lah, hentam my head to the wall after the result bukak banghead banghead banghead
    Post edited by nocturnal at 2013-11-15 06:02:39 pm
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Fortunately, I too have a koi pond in the mountain next to a beautiful lake. The unfortunate part, it is only in my dreams......... :-)) :-))
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  • nocturnalnocturnal November 2013
    Posts: 376
    :-)) :-)) :-))
  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    And on a more serious note for those calculating the monthly cost, be prepared to factor in another 20% when tariff increases next year.
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    For an almost 30 ton like mine, be prepared to pay RM500 to RM700 per month for the chiller's electricity for 21 degrees celcius.......

    Success in Shows come with a price............ :-(
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  • gerrygerry November 2013
    Posts: 777
    :O :O gila banyak bil elektrik!!
  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro @Shukri, what's the hp of your chiller?
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    3HP.............. :-D
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  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    I see, thanks for the info. Guess it will cost me about rm200 to run my 12 ton pond at 24 degrees.
    Post edited by nivek at 2013-11-15 07:21:33 pm
  • HDCuHDCu November 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    And it would cost me an equivalent of around rm2000 here a month to cool it to 21c. :-((
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-11-15 07:53:28 pm
  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    For me my bill maintain at 300 to 350 considering I have 24 7 cctv n alarm system...after install chiller my bill now is 700+..just need to be decipline...forget about buying tosai...buy only 1 time a year probably by end of the year..buy the best one...
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
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  • pandaipandai November 2013
    Posts: 1,083
    Bro Shukri, are you sure that's your cost for your "decent" fish...? ;-) :-D
    Get Kenkona Koi and Kenkona Bio at special price online at http://kenkonakoi.blogspot.com/
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • lautslauts November 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Shukri, bro nocturnal,

    Thanks for clarifying and redirecting the discussion, i like what's written by bro Shukri. (Y) Temp is but one parameter ( pH ,DO, DOC/ammo waste etc, disease control) to successful koi keeping no doubt. With simple methods eg spray bars , bakki , covers etc , we are able to reach good temp ranges of 25c - 26c easily , good enough for koi keeping. i think chiller is to taking the hobby to the next level . And any impression that chiller is a necessity will hurt the hobby. Start up cost for koi keeping and maintenance is already expensive. Would be good to see more newbies in the fray. Already seeing too many old sifus dropping out.

    ts
  • idrisidris November 2013
    Posts: 1,182
    i think that why this forum is relevant..

    1. to cut short learning curve
    2. to advice new hobbyist on selecting koi that probably they will cull later
    3. to advice on cost, consequence on what they going to do...

    with this newbie or anybody can select up to which level they going to go and will they afford it..

    tq bro lauts..
  • lautslauts November 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Yes , bro Idris i am with you on learning. (Y) i was happy with my locals until i read the old forum. :)

    You will be surprised how many koi kichis out there just read and never post or clarify. The silent koi kichi majority. And how many mis interpretations. Recently there was a posting on Kokusai . Dealer asked whether Kokusai was any good. This dealer that does carry Kokusai suddenly have customer inquiries as they hear comments Kokusai is as good as X... ( premium brand). After reading the post , it think it meant feeding to maximise potential , not abt one feed better than another.

    ts
  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Participating will definitely increase the learning curve and emptying the wallets hehehe :) so don't be shy, jump in.
  • lautslauts November 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Kevin,

    You are definitely not the shy type , see you posted the Marusei chagoi in Koi Bito =D>

    ts
  • niveknivek November 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    My ah pek skin very thick that's why LOL
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • gerrygerry November 2013
    Posts: 777
    :-)) :-)) I know exactly what you mean abg @Shukri...
  • ShukriShukri November 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • jimlimjimlim July 2014
    Posts: 27
    Dear Koikichi,

    I have a unit of Heilea 2hp chiller for sell. Been using it for 1 month...need to sell as pond is leaking. have to do reno for the time being.

    Weight 47kg - RM 2000.00

    May watspps me at 01266673152

    Thank you

  • ShukriShukri July 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Wrong thread to sell stuff here........
    Please use the appropriate sections........
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