Egg impaction problems in kois
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    That was in May this year. Interestingly, the koi is egg laden again just some 5 months later and this time the belly looks bigger than the last pregnancy. I injected the Ovaprim on Sunday. Only less than 100 eggs were released on Monday and I tried milking it yesterday and nothing came out. The koi was very weak after the injection of the Ovaprim and it nearly died yesterday-it was so weak that it could not even balance itself to swim straight. I thought I lost it. I quickly added S1 and the koi came back and was still alive as of last night 9pm.

    I actually did a secong Ovaprim injection yesterday 0.3 mg per kg instead of 0.5 mg per kg for the first injection. This was recommended by the supplier of the hormone.

    Going to check whether the fat lady is still alive or has released the eggs. I think it is suffering the labour pain and when the eggs couldn't be released, it became very weak. When it came back after swimming side way, that was a miracle in itself. I am praying for another miracle.

    If I didn't do anything, I do not think this lad can survive very much longer with the egg impaction. Getting pregnant twice in a year, headache..
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, thanks for sharing. It surely looked very easy there. We in KL have also tried with Ovaprim but failed even though with the dosage that is recommendated as written on the prescription. Nevertheless, looking at how easy it is in the video, we will try again whenever there is an egg impaction problem. Is there anything that we need to pay attention or any tips will be greatly appreciated.
    You looked like a pro there..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    The Showa is gone as expected. Will do a post mortem with the help of my good friend and sifu, George Liao and my great neighbour, CP Kueh.

    Hi Bro Shukri, that was not me molesting the koi in the video. It was my neighbour, CP Kueh, I was holding the camera.

    After the successful induced birth of the koi using Ovaprim as shown in the video, I thought I found a solution for the egg impaction problem. After Bro Paul's case and the demise of my Showa with the injection of the Ovaprim, it may not work all the time. The unanswered question even when we can tell that the fish is laden with eggs - "are the eggs matured enough to be released?" If it is premature for the fish to release the eggs, then injection of the Ovaprim would not help and may prove to be fatal like in my case.

    In the case of human, the foetus takes 9 months to mature. Premature births are possible at 6-7 months?? So in the case of koi, how long is "the gestation period" before the fish is ready for induced birth? Even if we know the gestation period, we won't know when the koi conceived unlike in the case of human where we can perform the ultrasound scan to know quite precisely when the baby was conceived based on the foetus size.

    Need input from some vet or doctor.

    Sorry to spoil a beautiful Sunday morning by breaking this sad news.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 12:41:21 am
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    hi bro sorry to hear the news.. always sad to lose a fish. I am sure with these sharing we gets better dealing with eggs problem. sometimes it just makes me want to focus on males.. less hassle.
  • DanleeDanlee October 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Alan,

    Sorry to hear about your loss. Bro David did advise not to do the second Ovaprim injection if the first injection failed. I think the biggest challenge is to know the best time for overprim injection. Some said we still need some male to help even with Ovaprim injection. I think we really need somone with very good success rate with overprim to share their experiences....BTW, I also bought a bottle of overprim but still does not have the courage to try after Bro Paul's and now your experience Do also die ..don't do also die. Looks lile "Pondan" is the way to go leh
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    Hi Dan, I know my Ginrin Hi Utsuri is having the same eggs problem. I spoke to several dealers and all advise me against injecting the fish to stimulate the eggs release. They seems to agree that moving the fish to a fiber tank, regular water change and threesome will help...
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Alan, thanks for sharing the experience and observations. It is indeed a nice Showa. Many of us has Ovaprim but has no courage to try it as there isn't a certainty that it will work. Thanks for sharing, and this information that you have shared is vital for many of us.

    You are correct, possibly one day the expert i.e. a Vet of someone that has been breeding kois will come out and help us.

    Regards,
    Shukri
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Andy, Daniel and Shukri,

    Thanks for your concern.

    Just found out from the supplier and an expert from the Fishery Department here that there is another hormone that can be injected to make the eggs "mature" for release. It is called "HCG". Will try to source for it for my next pregnant fish, hopefully, not too pricy one, hehe...

    When I posed the question to Thomas, the Fishery expert on how do we know whether the eggs are mature and ready to be released? The answer was normally they would insert a tube through the vent of a pregnant fish to extract some eggs. Then the eggs would be placed in water and if they become loose easily rather than sticking together, then the eggs are "mature" and ready to be released. How many of us have the courage to do that?

    Bro Daniel and Bro Andy, weighing all factors, it may be wise not to do any injection and just change water regularly while waiting for natural birth rather than risking the induced birth.

    Hope we all learn from my costly experience.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 12:42:08 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    We are learning alright. Let me know about the HCG and how it works........
    Thanks bro for the update.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • BenjaminGohBenjaminGoh October 2010
    Posts: 419
    Hi Dan, I know my Ginrin Hi Utsuri is having the same eggs problem. I spoke to several dealers and all advise me against injecting the fish to stimulate the eggs release. They seems to agree that moving the fish to a fiber tank, regular water change and threesome will help...


    Don't play play with your HiUtsuri arr. Very good fishh..
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, always seem so easy when other are doing it..

    Bro Shukri, you want to experiment using my sanke?? Looks like a good way to resolve egg problems.
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN October 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bro Alan,

    Did you give 'Fresh' Water Every Day....?

    Sorry to hear you lost.
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, sad to hear of your loss...
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro James,

    It was certainly easy at the first instance.

    Bro Zain,

    I did change 30% of water everyday. Thanks for your concern. We are all learning in this hobby, 10 times faster with the forum, definitely.
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, you are right. It's always easy when it works, and we can get a little too petrified when it doesn't especially with such a precious piece. Maybe the question we should ask ourselves is how to create the natural environment for it so that we do not have to treat it medically. I am sure koi do not die from eggs as frequent as in ponds.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi all, with the help of George Liao and Kueh Chek Ping, we performed an autopsy on the showa that died from the egg impaction. Here are the pics taken.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/160/2010_04_22_0939%20(Medium).JPG

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/161/2010_04_22_0940%20(Medium).JPG
    Post edited by etano at 2010-10-20 12:54:39 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    What a pity and real sad indeed.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    The result of the autopsy is that the koi died of egg impaction. The whole lower body was filled with eggs from the vent all the way to the throat. There must be more than 1 kg of eggs and that is why the stomach looked so bloated before it was cut up. The eggs were still pretty much clustered and not loose. So I reckon the eggs were not ready to be released.

    Another important point to note is that the vent area looked blocked and bled internally and that is probably another sign that the vent was not opened up and ready to release eggs, just like the opening up of cervical bone in the case of human to facilitate the delivery of the baby.

    Spoke to Bro Paul over the phone, he raised the interesting question "why do some koi like my Showa get egg impacted and not others, which means why the koi produced so much eggs when it was not even ready to release them?"

    My Showa was one of those ferocious eaters. Ate like a Chagoi but hadn't really grown much in the last 6 months, still 66cm. So the explanation could be the big eaters that are almost fully grown are more likely to be victims of egg impaction. But then I guess it also depends on the genetic of the koi, some are more fertile than others.

    The conclusion is that egg impaction will continue to haunt us and we are still in the hunt for a better and safer solution.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 11:25:22 am
  • AaronGohAaronGoh October 2010
    Posts: 110
    Bro Alan , Is that full of liquid like Andy's showa?
    Aaron
    +60123182002

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