Egg impaction problems in kois
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    Guys I am trying to get an experience koi dealer to show the way he solve this problem.. Hopefully can be a lesson for all of us... Who knows, maybe can then pay them to do it..
  • etanoetano October 2010
    Posts: 471
    I was chatting about this subject with Raymond Hew. He has never experienced this problem despite his long time in the hobby. He has some big female in the bigger pond, we both guessed that controlled feeding will reduce this risk.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • koifankoifan October 2010
    Posts: 59
    That's very interesting.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Koifan, we milked the koi after injecting the Ovaprim, not really pressing hard. It was just a gentle action.

    Hi Bro Andy, that would be great if the dealer can do a demo on video and then we would all benefit greatly from it.

    Bro Elmen, I guess controlled feeding would definitely help but cannot be a complete solution. I believe with controlled feeding, some koi will still be ladened with eggs. It is a great news for us to hear that Bro Raymond never encountered the problem of egg impaction which means maybe only a small percentage of the koi would face this problem.

    Does keeping all female koi in a pond help to reduce the problem in the sense that no male koi to stimulate the female to produce eggs? Just wondering...
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-23 08:18:22 am
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Theoretically speaking I think keeping all female would be worse. I liken this to the normal hormone imbalance from our female partners. It is a cycle that must happen and if managed well the side effects, ie mood swings and egg impaction in case of kois would be minimal.

    Or maybe I am talking gibberish!!
  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    A pond full of females won't make it better as ovulation will take place and it will happen every cycle...what we want to do is to replicate the condition in nature where the conditions are ngam for them to be ready to release their eggs ...one way is to make your pond ala mud pond colour and put some vegetation so that the female kois are not threaten and ready to release their eggs with the help from the males....that's what happen in our batch of sallymiya yamabuki...speaking of which is really good quality but mine is very shy when eating guessing that it is a male....but nice body and colour....but i guess if we do this then we won't be able to enjoy seeing our lovely jewels in crystal clear water.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Thanks Bro Farik for the info. Much appreciated.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    My khohaku also facing same problem, been put in a qt for a week.Still no sign of egg release. I think will lost this koi. Need help from all sifu here...
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, this is one area that I have ZERO knowledge. I have lost 4 so far due to egg impaction. I am also as eager as you are on how to deal with the situation.
    I am also looking up to the bros like Alan Sim etc........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • AnuarAnuar November 2010
    Posts: 688
    Bro, I read that Dato Razif induced through frequent water change in the qt, to stress the koi/ or maybe tried changing the temperature to induce egg release. Like Bro Shukri, I have also lost Kois in this manner. I think the main challenge is the timing, most of us are too late, i.e. The eggs would have probably hardened, and it will then be too late for the release.

    Good luck.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Bro let me try to chip in my 2 cents. I think to induce spawning naturally, the best time to do it is at the late spring or the beginning of summer (May/June). To create water temperature change you try those aquarium heater in the QT by on and off it frequently or add new cooler water frequently. If this fails then try overprim injection as last resort.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bros, these information are good........ (ok) Without these kind of tips, it will take us a life time before we know what's happening. Setting the right parameters is worth a try. Normally I am quite observant with regards to cats and guinea pigs behavior prior to mating and delivering babies, but these kois are not giving me the signs at all until it is too late i.e. kick the bucket. Those books that tell us about koi spawning and breeding with be good.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    Thanks all sifu here for the knowledge. Seem egg impaction was one off the challenge to a newbie like me. When i was on the way home from kepong i receive a call from my sister in law told me that,your koi been join to haven. Sad to hear that news.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    I am sorry to learn of the demise of your koi. I just spoke to the supplier of Ovaprim and was told that there is a special tube used to extract eggs to see if the fish is ready to release the eggs before hormones are injected to induce release of eggs. He is emailing me an article on this. Will post the article here when received.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    thank you brother for the good news, hope it will help us to solve the egg impacttion for our koi.
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Alan,

    This is good news.. the biggest challenge is to know when koi is ready to release eggs, when is a good time to use ovaprim... really looking forward to the article.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Daniel, here is the article.

    "Induced spawning by hormone injection

    After stocking seabass broodstock in the pre-spawning tank for two months, the fish are inspected twice a month during spring tide, Ovarian maturity of the female is measured as follows: the eggs are sampled from the female through the use of a polyethelene cannula of 1.2 mm in diameter. The fish is either anaesthetized or inverted gently with a black hood over the head. The cannula is inserted into the oviduct for a distance of 6–7- cm from the cloaca. Eggs are sucked orally into the tube by the operator as the cannula is withdrawn. The eggs are then removed from the cannula and egg diameter measurement is made. When the seabass eggs reach the tertiary yolk globule stage or have a diameter of 0.4–0.5 mm, the female is ready for hormone injection. In males, only those with running milt are chosen.
    The hormones usually used to induce spawning in seabass that produce reliable results are:
    • Puberogen
    • HCG + pituitary gland of Chinese carp
    Puberogen consists of 63% follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and 34% Leutinizing hormone (LH). The dosage usually applied is 50–200 IU/kg of fish. The fish will spawn at about 36 hours after injection. If no spawning occurs, the second injection is applied 48 hours after the first injection. The dosages of second injection should be double from that of the first injection and can also be given 24 hours after the initial injection. The male is usually injected at the same time as the female with a dosage of 20–50 IU/kg of fish. The fish will normally spawn within 12–15 hours after the second injection.
    Homogenized pituitary glands of Chinese carp are used at 2–3 mg/kg of fish mixed with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 250–1,000 IU/kg of fish. The time interval of application and spawning are the same when using puberogen.
    Before injection, the spawner should be weighed and the hormone requirement computed. Spawners should be injected intramuscularly below the dorsal fin. After injection, they should be transferred from pre-spawning tank to the spawning tank. Twenty four hours after first injection, response of the fish to the hormone treatment is often manifested by the swelling of the belly. If the fish is expected to spawn within the nenxt 12–15 hours, a milky white scum (fatty in texture) will appear on the water surface of the spawning tank. If not, a second injection should be given.
    Seabass that are induced to spawn by hormone treatment will always spawn within 12 hours after the second injection. The schedule of injections for subsequent spawning must be synchronized with the natural spawning time of the fish which occurs in late evening between 1800 to 2000 hours.



    General Features:
    Ovaprim is a liquid, peptide supplement that is used:
    • to compress the spawning season,
    • to coordinate spawning times,
    • to increase milt production in males,
    • safely and with predictable results.
    Ovaprim utilizes the fish’s own endocrine system to safely induce maturation and coordinate spawning dates. When used in the normal spawning cycle, Ovaprim can synchronize and coordinate maturation in treated fish by significantly advancing maturation without affecting viability or fecundity. Ovaprim has been tested and proven effective in 6 species of salmonids and several other cultured species. Ovaprim is a licensed and registered in several countries.
    Product Description:
    • ---contains an analogue of salmon GnRH, the native peptide found in most teleost fish,
    • ---also contains a dopamine inhibitor that is required in many cultured fish species,
    • ---is a peptide supplement that is delivered in an inert vehicle,
    • ---comes in a formulated concentration that can be used in any size of fish,
    • ---will begin to induce maturation immediately (species dependant) after injection for fast results.
    A single dose of Ovaprim is normally sufficient to induce maturation. Initial priming doses can be used to potentiate maturational effects. Ovaprim comes in self-sealing bottles of two sizes, 10 and 100ml. Injections of Ovaprim are delivered to the peritoneal (abdominal) cavity using a standard needle and syringe. Ovaprim can be used in photoperiod-controlled or temperature-controlled fish and can be used in conjunction with other therapeutants as advised by a veterinarian."

  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    Hi Bro,

    I have a little suggestion.

    Instead of going into the details to understand how to Induce Spawning, Clear egg, etc...Maybe we should take a step back to work on prevention methods.

    If you look at the few koi photos shown here, they have also gone beyond the normal body shape. I believed these koi must be swimming in a Helicopter style for quite sometimes. (head pointing downwards, tail flapping upward.)

    The food that we are feeding is high protein, probably high fats too. And there are some practising continuous Heavy Feeding.

    We should learn how to manage the koi, and notice the change in behavior, swimming style, and body shape.

    Stop feeding, to me, is the most effective method to counter many problems.
    I used to trial and error with medications in the past, but I've stop doing so for the last 1-2 years, including salt, unless the situation is serious.

    Be it ulcer, red rashes, parking, motionless floating, splash out of water, etc...I would stop feeding for 3-5 days or even more.
    YOu will be able to see how effective it is for stop feeding. Problem is hobbyists, many will not be able to resist not feeding.

    As mentioned by others, our pond is full of "food". the 1st few days of stop feeding is not really counted.
    after the 1st few days, I can see that my pond floor bed algae is also dissappearing. This should be the day we start counting as stop feeding.

    In my opinion, those koi that develop helicopter swimming, is probably too late to do anything.

    If you look at those spawning video found in youtube, you will notice that the spawning female is Fat, but body shape still very nice.

    Thanks. :)











  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,247
    Pohbeng,

    There are a few established hobbyist advocating stop feeding, can you explain your method? Do you practise stop feeding on a schedule like once a week , or maybe few weeks in a year ? Or only when you encounter problem? How much do you feed daily in term of est % of body weight. Type of diet , varied with wheatgerm, hi protein , added vege etc? Hope you do not mind the probing questions, am here to learn from those who knows better.

    :-) :-)
    thanks
    ts
  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    TS,

    I do not have fixed pattern schedule.
    But in general, my koi will b stop feeding once every 2-3 months easily.

    Usually I observe the behaviour.

    Behaviour/ to look out :
    1. Continuous days of hot sun and afternoon short rain.
    2. When the koi look inactive
    3. flashing
    4. parking
    etc.....sometimes is run out of food and didn't go and buy!

    My house pond will be worst. When I travel, they are on stop feeding! On average, they only eat about 10-20 days a month. :P

    Maybe I too Kiasu...so stop feeding became quite common once every 1-2 months or 2-3 months. So no schedule. :D

    Food wise, I feed saki hikari as main. Sometimes use sakai, and sometimes FD or other brand. Not fixed.

    Most Important is that keeping and feeding koi has no fixed formulae or pattern. You just need to observe and adjust accordingly.
    Post edited by pohbeng at 2010-11-30 04:23:19 am

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