Egg impaction problems in kois
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Well I find people who control their feeding regime to do much better in term of controlling eggs problem.. I wonder if its better to feed less or have a regular non feeding days...
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,247
    Pohbeng,

    Your stop feeding means abt 7 days no feeding. With no define schedule but likely monthly , sometimes every two to three month. The feed used is also high protein considering sakai and FD used. Any supplements like vege? may i ask how many females above 70cm in the pond and pond depth?

    thanks
    ts
  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    TS

    my koi are mainly posted in here.
    http://koifish.blog.com/

    I keep most of them (should be all female except for 1 or 2) in a 100+ ton pond, depth of 4-6ft, longish.
    About 10 pcs are in a 8 ton pond of 3ft. (largest is abt 75cm).

    The stop feeding can be 2-3 days to 1-2 weeks, depend on the situation. It is hard to give a specific schedule or routine. As mentioned, you need to observe the koi behaviour, even their swiming style.

    only pellet food now. :D



  • niveknivek December 2013
    Posts: 1,250
    Any recent solution found to this problem, other than fasting? :)
    Post edited by nivek at 2013-12-04 12:34:59 pm
  • ckleecklee December 2013
    Posts: 85
    Hi all,
    my way is keeping some male in my pond and let all fish fasting about 10days to 2weeks,and try to change more water,asspecially on raining time.thn the male will chase the female til she release out..
    I believe many ppl like to keep female in their pond n kick out all d male,i strongly believe it will make the condition more worst.
    my advise is "Just to let the male doing their job''.
  • HDCuHDCu December 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    I have always believed that in koi keeping it should be more of prevention than cure.

    The eternal summer setting in a tropical setting provides a different approach in koi keeping as compared to a four season setting. In a four season setting, during summer time and when the condition for growth is ripe, high protein food is given plentiful to provide instant growth in length and in body shape as the window of growth is short. As the water begins to cool down metabolism slows and the koi adds girth and egg is produce. Winter time is when feeding is almost stopped and provides the opportunity for the koi to use its stored fat and reabsorb its eggs. As the koi emerges from winter its appetite slowly gets back.

    Now in a "eternal summer" setting the growing season is at least three x longer. Now try to imagine you have tosai along with several mature koi in your pond. You join a growout contest or you aim to grow your tosai as quick as possible so that "you dont miss out what you think is the best growth stage". Your eagerness even believe that a high protein koi food 40% above will be the best in growing the tosai. So you feed four or five times a day and are happy to see the tosai grow very fast while the mature koi seem to be adding on girth but growth seem to be slowing down despite being fed continuously. Some of the mature koi will loose their appetite but you notice a few heavy eater nisai or mature koi eagerly even hungry to your delight. But then you notice these heavy eater that have bulked up are growing slower in length actually and starting to loose their conformation that they had before. You shrug the matter maybe because the smaller tosai are a delight to see that they have grown fast while a some mature koi seem to be doing ok since they have added more girth. Then you realize that it is too late and you have an egg impaction problem already.

    So what lesson should be learned?
    1. As much as possible keep same size koi. Tosai are still immature and can get away with heavy feeding for a year even with high protein food. Older koi on the other hand need to have regulated feeding amount.
    2. Learn how to deal with eternal summer setting. If in a four season setting the short growing period requires a feed rate of 1.5 percent or more of koi food of of high protein, I do not see how even feeding 1 percent of high protein food nonstop would not bring about too much egg development that can cause egg impaction.
    3. Fasting in an "eternal sunshine" setting is a must if you want to keep females. The duration and frequency of the fast would depend on many factors such as water temperature, protein content of feed, absorbtion rate, feed rate, etc. Do not be fooled that a koi without a big belly will never suffer from egg impaction. A koi that puts its energy requirement in storing more and more eggs will grow slower in the long run as the egg multiply and grow bigger inside.
    4. I do not know if it works but i do keep one mature male koi. The reason why only one male is that if i keep two or three male may rough up a female. One male with a bunch of female will just at most cause some short episode of chasing and occassional realease of a some eggs.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-12-04 06:41:51 pm
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar December 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    =D> =D>

    Gud read bro HDCu
  • niveknivek December 2013
    Posts: 1,250
    Good info (Y)
  • ashfaqashfaq December 2013
    Posts: 797
    (Y) Very nicely said, good read brother @HDCu
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • niveknivek July 2014
    Posts: 1,250
    Here are 2 methods that can be considered as last resort to save your egg bound kois. Do note that the below 2 methods are being used to extract eggs from paddlefish for caviar but the concept should be similar.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1wwunHyvU

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhsMkyLOtBI

    Post edited by nivek at 2014-07-21 11:42:35 pm
  • lautslauts July 2014
    Posts: 1,247
    Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for sharing, something worth serious thought. It is well known fact from experience of koi sifus that when koi egg is not ripe/ready for release , injection of egg hormone ( for egg release purpose) will likely kill the koi. I am not sure if it applies here. In that if the koi egg is not ready and we force it , will it kill the koi?
    So far i think the safest way is still the natural way , maybe bro MRkoi Azmi can share more on?

    ts

  • mrkoimrkoi July 2014
    Posts: 496
    Bro Lau,

    You are totally right. The fish must be healthy and ready. If not, u may end up kill the fish.
  • lautslauts May 2015
    Posts: 1,247
    Some latest experience to share .

    I seldom have issues from big kois dying on me from suspected egg problem until now. And i have been keeping them to jumbos for sometime now .
    I always believe you can take kois from nature but not nature from kois. This May and June is the usual koi spawning season in Japan. Unless you have been very careful to feed , fast and rotate feeding , your kois may over accumulate eggs and this may cause problems.

    I usually will be on low protein wheatgerm from Nov until April yearly . For some reason due to rotation between fasting , low protien and bulking , the last few month Nov to end Jan i have been feeding quite a lot high protein, at abt 0.5 to 0.7% of body weight. One month's fasting in Feb , really non feeding for 3 weeks solid. And back to high protein and wheatgerm mix in Mar to now. So even 3 weeks of solid fasting did not help , if it was done ad hoc after too long a high protein feed. Another thing is slowing down of water flow by pointing downwards , hence lacking exercise to build bulk.

    Few of my big mamas have been resting at pond bottom occasionally. 2 of them including my 80cm purachina ogon died two weeks ago, and she wasn't too heavy on the stomach. Autopsy shows body full of eggs all rather similar and healthy looking , other internal parts looks ok. Nothing looks impacted or abnormal abt the eggs. i think the egg overproduction due to good food and lack of exercise have caused the internal organs to be impeded. Contributing to weaken koi and organ failure displayed by dropsy.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17484/ogon.jpg

    Symptoms started as regular resting at pond bottom , then progressed to raised scales like dropsy, only at shoulder area. Otherwise healthy and eating normal. Then progressed slowly to slight bloating then suddenly to full dropsy with bloated body all within 2 weeks .

    So i had to do something with the egg issue so have tried last week i female and 3 males in QT , with water changes every morning for 3 days, NOTHING so back to pond.
    Then this morning , 2 females kois was in QT due to sluggishness and antibiotic jab not for spawning actually. With just soft leaves did the trick even with no males but the other female pushing it around. No Ovaprim either.

    I have been researching and checking on use of Ovaprim.

    Some lessons learnt;

    a) Condition to activate spawning is important , one way is to add some leaves and early morning water changes to stimulate them. Use the soft and small leave type mine was tip of jasmine plant tied together. ie has white very fragrant flowers. Worth a try without Ovaprim and all natural.

    b) If using Ovaprim for egg release, just use on female not male as well. The female when ready will signal by release of hormone to activate the males . Even with Ovaprim AND egg are ready , still needs pressure to release egg , either from male or hand stripping.

    c) How to know when to stripping ? When female is ready after Ovaprim , the males will chase it like crazy, then either leave the male to do the job or help hand strip.

    d) IF you want to egg strip, DO NOT start after applying Ovaprim , let the males start the signal and when you see eggs starting to come out then you can strip.

    e) Your kois do not have to be having a big belly to be eggs laden . Both my ogon and now showa was rather thin on the stomach but eggs are ready. While 2 fat mamas have not been successful with just leaves .

    f) Ovaprim will work on ready eggs within 12 hrs, so inject at night say 8pm and next morning abt 6am IF eggs are ready , you will see action.

    g) If eggs not ready , Ovaprim will be absorbed by body without any harm. You may want to try again in 2 weeks after conditioning the kois via heavy feeding. This may ready the eggs for next dose of Ovaprim if you want to try and suspect kois may be ready.

    h) Antibiotic jabs is recommended after egg release.

    i) Eggs will be continually produced with or without males in the pond. By controlling feeding you control amt of eggs produced in koi. Chances of problem occuring from impaction and egg laden kois will be higher if more eggs are produced .

    j) Males in pond plays an important role. I have been letting go some big males leaving a few smaller males. This could have contributed to my egg problem. I think an all female pond will be faced with more egg problem. So diet plays a more important role.

    i will try leaves and Ovaprim on another one fat mama this weekend. Plus 3 males as assistants.
    If no eggs comes after 2 days ( if it happens it will be within 12 hrs) then she goes back to the pond. Update on the Ovaprim result then.

    Hope it help with your jumbos and avoid egg problems.

    Pict and videos later.

    ts

    Attachments
    ogon.jpg 145K
  • HDCuHDCu May 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Sorry for your losses Bro Lauts,

    From your description, it looked to me your koi died because of bacterial issues leading to dropsy.




  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,247
    Thank you bro HDCu.

    The big question is whether egg laden (not impacted but healthy i think ) has anything to do with these issues. No problems with smaller , other kois.
    There is no external body damages on both the kois. No reddening of the shiroji except towards the end when dropsy already sets in. They were still eating heartily and except for occasional settling at pond bottom and lethargy nothing much different. Yes and the slight raised scales later at the shoulder/ gill flap area before full blown dropsy.
    Hence i leave them be without any antibiotic jab , and coming too late when dropsy appear.

    After the autopsy on the 2nd koi ( no autopsy in first) only visible lots of eggs .Leading me to postulate the egg laden issue.

    Successful with Ovaprim on 2nd female, she release her eggs Sat morning after Ovaprim jab 8pm Fri night. by 11pm already some action with 3 males. Both females are healthy and doing good after 2 antibiotic jab and back to main pond.

    More to come and my dilemma, now i have leftover eggs from 1st spawning already hatched !! :-(( :-((

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Lauts,

    I am not sure if egg laden has anything to do with your recent death issues. It could be anything from bacterial to internal organ failure. I do not think "not able to spawn" eggs in an eternal sunshine setting would cause long term harm to a koi but then I could be wrong. Some female koi after summer have empty eggs while some carry eggs all the years. So there is genetics involoved as well. In addition, I do think the kind of food and how and how much the food at what period is fed somewhat causes development of much eggs.

    Vitamin E( depending on how much) in koi food seem to have a big effect. The importance of vitamin E in fish reproduction has been reported. For example, vitamin E caused higher gonadosomatic index, larger ova, and more eggs than a control in a study on the effect of
    vitamin E and growth hormone on the gonadal maturity of freshwater fish (Cyprinus carpio) (Gupta et al., 1987). In addition, complete spawning occurred in fish fed a diet
    containing vitamin E, but only partial spawning occurred in the fish fed diets without vitamin E (Gupta et al., 1987).


    Lately I injected 3 consecutive days of antibiotic shots to one of my 80cm female kohaku(not egg impacted) that was acting listless for 2 days and not going up to the surface to eat. The only factor I can remember is changing brand of koi food( no problem with others as they still ate aggressively), intense heat and sudden pouring of rain, and some ongoing demotion around 12 meters away in my house. No visible external signs and no signs of parking. However, my intiution told me something is amiss and took the pro active approach to inject immediately. The kohaku seem to respond better swimming leisurely now at around 2 to 5 feet. It has not gone up to eat aggressively as before but I can see her already grazing on some bottom algae and munching on some small sinking feeds. Hopefully she can recover 100%.

    Growing and maintaining jumbo female koi is definitely present some problems that even makes the more experience koi hobbyist humbled. However, the reward of having some beautiful jumbo koi swimming in ones pond is enough to take on the risks associated with it.
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,247
    Bro HDCu,

    Thanks for info on vit E.
    There is no sure thing as with most things, not all smokers end up with lung cancer. I do prefer not to have a female full of eggs esp if it disrupt the good body view and graceful movement.
    So now one option is to use Ovaprim. Fasting ad hoc even 3 weeks no feeding solid did not help. It is safe with my showa, will try on 2 others when i decide on the koi fry now abt 3-4mm already :-((
    i am observing the females now in pond providing them best water. To reduce coliforms i have turn on the UV and applied Remedor ( kills bacts , fungi and virus).
    Reduce the risk , the females infected after egg release.

    Better body conformation and movement for sure (Y) after no massive egg released from body, 500grs less . :-))
    The bag with egg is 1ft long and 3in thick full of egg ,
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17488/koi egg.jpg

    female 73cm Seijuro ( from Elmen's GO prize koi) after egg release

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17489/Seijuro Mama.jpg

    Pict taken Oct2014 , 7 month ago , stomach was more full just before spawning.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17490/Seijuro Oct2014.JPG

    Some observations of mine later .

    ts
    Post edited by lauts at 2015-06-02 12:11:28 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Lauts,

    I have some questions I hope you can share:
    1. Normally what is the protein content of the food (no need to mention the brand)? Wheatgerm or fish protein?
    2. Are the koi that get more egg laden have a bigger appetite?
    3. How many times a day do you feed? Do you feed small servings several times a day or big servings just few times a day?
    4. Does you koi after feeding still swim around to look for food or mostly stay inactive after feeding?
    5. How often do you practice fasting?
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,247
    Hi bro HDCu,

    Sorry to take awhile to come back , tending to the fry really takes a lot of time.
    The spawned females are doing fine. The babies are fed egg yolk and you can see the yellow in their tummies. Here is the other mama Dainichi , she took 2nd in 2011 Yamakoshi GO.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17510/mama daishowa.jpg

    The fries , 2 mamas both showa. Papas were a Daikon showa , a sakai sanke and a Hi Utsuri.
    My question when culling what do i keep ? Just the black fries kurokos ? Do i expect any Hi Utsuri and sankes ? Anyone ??
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17511/koifry4June15.jpg

    To your question bro

    a) I feed mostly Saki Growth , Basic and Colour mix and rotated. Also Hi Silk and Kokusai Colour and Vitality occasionaly . I think 40% protein in Saki except Basic, not sure how much. I have not fed Wheatgerm for years. The last 6 month i have used mix of Hi Silk , Growth and Colour all above 40% .This is not the norm feed pattern. Lower protein food wasn't available.

    b) All my kois have great appetite i really can;t see any difference. If you mean they eat more than the rest , not sure.

    c) I use autofeeder set 4 times feeding per day 7, 11, 3 and 7pm. I feed abt 0.3 to 0.4% daily. Est weight of kois by length . Sometimes they get extra treats of Hi Silk at night.

    d) After feeding they will still look for food munching the wall and floor. This will be for sometime then they will be inactive like regurgitating the food. A few will rest at pond bottom then.

    e) 1 day fasting every week after water change. Then 1 full week fasting after every month feeding.

    Hope it helps and hope to get some help on the culling issue.

    thanks
    ts
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Thanks Bro Lauts for your replies.

    Could it be possible that feeding higher % of protein(above 40%) for 6 month and feeding Hi silk at night when koi are usually less active lead to higher probability of egg development?

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