Raising PH to a more stable 8.3 by adding lots of baking soda.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Lately, I was following a thread in another forum where more north american hobbyist share their views. In one thread, there was case of sick kois brought about clearly what I see as as adding a bunch of kois from another pond far away without doing any quarantine procedures. Parameter of ammonia, nitrites where good. Only that the Ph was reading between 7.0 to 7.5. The pond was never affected by rain and koi started getting sick and dying after two days of adding new kois without quarantine.

    Anyway, there were a lot of comments of suggesting raising the Ph to a much more stable 8.3 by adding enough baking soda.

    Personally I am dumbfounded the need to raise PH to a high 8.3 if the fish are already sick. Is there any reason how raising Ph to 8.3 will help dying kois recover?

    Your thought?
  • HDCuHDCu July 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?138404-pH-KH-and-GH-Explained

    "Many koi kichi will say that the best beni is produced by koi that are raised in soft water with a pH in the 6.8 to 7.2 range. While that might be true, koi are adaptable to a wide range of pH from about 6.4 to 9.4 as long as the pH is stable. For reasons that I will discuss under the section on KH, the vast majority of koi keepers have a stable pH of 8.3. Would their koi look better if the pH was 7.0? Perhaps, but they would not necessarily be any healthier. For healthy, long-lived koi, the most important thing about pH is that it be stable."


    your thoughts of the above comment by the author.
  • ShukriShukri July 2013
    Posts: 4,881
    Kois are highly adaptable. When come to pH, pH of 7.2 to 7.6 is fine. I agree with HDCu, one important element about pH is its stability. Daily fluctuation of pH will not be good to the kois in the long run.............
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 July 2013
    Posts: 530
    adding baking soda (na2co3) ? i think it will create higher tds either....?
  • HDCuHDCu July 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    baking soda will increase calcium and carbonates and therefore increase tds and foaming as well.
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    Isn't baking soda Sodium Bicarbonate?
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    .
    Post edited by wyin at 2013-07-10 01:11:23 pm
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Baking Soda=Sodium Bicarbs. If you are measuring pond TDS , soda bicarbs will ruin it for you just like salt. Best used during emergency pH crash. If the pond needs occasional top up to maintain pH , the oyster/corals buffer is not working.

    ts
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    Is Carbonate hardness needed just to maintain the stability of pond pH or is it also needed by the nitrifying bacteria?

    I am able to maintain my pond pH stable at the level of 7.5 using coral chips but my kH has always been at non detectable level using the common colour tester. Source water is pH7.8 and kH2. Do I need need to increase the kH to the recommended 4dkH or it will be all right since my pH is relatively stable?
    Post edited by wyin at 2013-07-10 01:49:25 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Interestingly I dont bother to test PH anymore but just KH which is maintained at just 2. Source water has a KH of 3.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-07-10 01:48:13 pm
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    carbonates is needed to maintain boh stability and in nitrification process. If your pH is stable mainly due to your good maintenance and cleaning of filters you can do with borderline 2dkH. Increasing kH will mean increasing water hardness. Kois skin, shine and colour does better in soft water.

    ts

  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    So for my pond, I will need to add baking soda everyday to maintain the desire 2dkH? Is there other more sustainable ways of maintaining the dkH? How do you guys do it?
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Your buffers and current water maintenance is good enough to maintain pH steady. No need for baking soda, at 2dkh even heavy rain no problem. Just do some flushing when it rains and top up, maybe 5-10% . You may need to measure pH occasionally just to be sure. Many western koi manual will ask for 4-5dKH , but from my experience 2dkh is good enough . Soft water in our region is a double edge sword , if you clean filters often , not overstock too much and do water change, it will work to your advantage.

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu July 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Lauts,

    Many hobbyists in koiphen simply love to promote the constant use of baking soda. They like turning their soft water 7.5 ph to a high stable8.3 ph with very high TDS and KH readings! I am just perplexed their claim that water change is not enough to prevent a PH crash. :-?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-07-10 04:24:25 pm
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    I think I am comfortable with my pH at the moment. My concern is the "carbonates is needed in the bacteria nitrification process". Since the kH of my pond is close to zero, I wonder if the nitrification process in my pond is limited by this factor.

    WY
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    i have not been into koiphen forum so i am just stabbing in the dark . I think they are not using any buffers like corals or oysters? I recall some in US forums uses hardened plaster of paris , placed in filters chamber to prevent pH drop. Higher KH is better as margin of safety is much higher to begin with, hence pH drop avoided. They missed the point that soft water (associated with low kH) is better for kois. I think you had read Snaden's report of softwater , pH close to 7.2 and low TDS in some good pond in Japan. ;-)

    Bro WeiYin,

    You worry to much :) , your kois are fine. 2dKH is not close to 0 , still a long way to go as it works on a log scale. Mine is on 2dKH as well , and earlier on i have tried to increase to 3 by adding CaCo3. Did not work. I just add more oysters and corals , close to 200kg now still the kH remains at 2. pH always steady at 7.5 regardless of how heavy the rain. If you have corals/oysters they will provide enough carbonates for nitrification. If unsure just measure ammo and nitrite, i am sure not detectable. So just enjoy the kois bro but be vigilant.

    ts



  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    The kH of my pond is really close to zero le, not 2dkH. If i were to test it using the colour test kits for kH, it turn light yellow on the first drop. But my pH stays relatively stable at 7.5, even after heavy rain. On the TDS, I do see the increase of TDS for about 40ppm after adding the coral chips as buffer.
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    How much corals to how many ton of pond water? yellow on first drop is very on the edge bro. You may have '' overactive biofilter" syndrome, if you follow KoiBito. :-D How is the nitrate reading ?

    Anyway some possible cause :
    a) Insufficient buffer quantity or quality ( corals too compact , low flowthro and never wash)
    b) Not enough water changes.
    c) Too high stocking and/or too high feed rate for existing filters.

    ts
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    I read about the thread by JR but don't quite get him. But anyway, how do we gauge the quantity of buffer needed in our pond. I stop adding more coral chips when my pH stabilized at 7.5, by just using 15KG in Bakki shower. I change 10-15% water daily via drip and not too sure if I am feeding beyond what my filter could handle.

    WeiYin
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    15kg in ?? tons water. I used abt 5kg per ton water. i think the slicing effect by water in your bakki will mean you need less maybe even 2kg per ton ok.

    ts
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    15Kg for my 21 ton pond, with over 2 times turn over. I wonder why is my kH stays extremely low while my pH is OK??? And most importantly, is that an issue??

    WeiYin
  • lautslauts July 2013
    Posts: 1,248
    I would add another 20kg. pH and Kh different thing although related. kH measure sensitivity of pH to change. Lower kH means easier for pH to change from current 7.5. Not an issue if you remain very vigilant by testing water everytime it rains heavy and weekly too , to ensure your filters have not depleted the carbonates hence pH starts to shift. lower kH gives you low margin of safety bro.

    ts
  • wyinwyin July 2013
    Posts: 78
    Will try that. Hopefully the additional buffer will increase my kH without bringing my pH to the roof.

    WY


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