pond and koi (maxwell).
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    I am planning to built a concrete koi pond around June this year. I have just completed design drawings of the pond and please to attach it here, hoping to get some advises and make corrections before construction starts. Can anyone advise me on how much it will cost to built and set up of operation? My guess is around 15K to 20K. Thank you.

    Top view -
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/2056/pond top view.jpg

    Side view -
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/2057/pond side view.jpg

    Drain, 1st and 2nd filter chambers -
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/2075/pond drain12.jpg

    3rd, 5th and 6th filter chambers -
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/2076/pond 356.jpg
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro Max,
    It looks like you are set to go. Good set up. Most of the filter media you planning to use q similar to my filter. But I place my bio foam mat(black in colour) in the last chamber prior to the pump chamber. My reasoning is that the bio ring chip or dirt will still get trapped by the foam and you should hv clear water going to the pump chamber. Not sure about the your surface skimmers but I would suggest that you have one skimmer which can be drained straight into the public drain.

    Good luck.
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Bro IKK,
    Will connect a tee to main pipe of skimmers, joining one end to 3rd chamber and the other to drain chamber and controled by ball valves at both ends. Will place bio-rings and shells in 5th chamber and dishwasher filter mat in 6th chamber before water pump chamber.

    Thank you - Bro IKK, for your valuable input to the design of my koi pond. Also many thanks for your information and knowhow that you have posted and shared in this forum. Making my learning cuve much shorter and easier. I like both your seijuro showa tosai posted here.
    -----------------happy sharing -------------.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau March 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    No worries bro. I also learned from our bros in this and other forum. As much as possible I will try to share my limited knowledge with all hobbyist here.

    The reason for that skimmer is that at times you just don't want the bubbles or floating debree to go thru the filter and goes back to the pond. For new pond or when adding salt, the pond will hv significant ugly bubbles on the water surface. You just want to get rid of it from the pond. It's also a good overflow feature if you plan to add continous trickle water into your pond. I am so glad that I "accidentally" have this skimmer in my pond.

    Btw don't forget to build in the pipe for aeration in the filter chambers. From the diagram, I believed that you are going to have transfer ports to promote up down flow rather than up down, up down flow in your chambers.

    Thanks for your comment on my Seijuro showas. I like watching them and hope they will get better as they grow. So far so good.

    Regards

  • SunshineSunshine March 2011
    Posts: 2
    Hello Max,
    Nice set up!
    Just an idea, have you thought of having aeration along the wall near to the bakki shower? I know the bakki stream will push the water one way to the bottom drain. I would think if with added aeration along that wall would add more water current to the pond and the koi will have to work more to built up the good body.
    At the 4th chamber there is no media in it, would it be good to add aeration to it such that when the water gets into the 5,6 and 7th chamber, the good bacteria can work a lot more efficient?
    Cost wise, as usual, it would be good to get 2-3 contractors to quote. It is even better if the contractor have a pond themselves and you can evaluate from there too.

    Sunshine
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Bro IKK,
    I totally agree with you on top skimmer. I always continously supply trickle water into my pond resulting water to flow over the wall of my pond and down to drain. This act as a skimmer to get rid of surface oil and foam.

    I actually did not plan to install any aeration to my pond. I believe the bakki shower is enough to do this job. Thanks to you, I will install air pipe lines to all transfer ports between filter chambers to improve aeration.

    Diagram below shows flow of water through filter chambers -
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/2087/pond filters.jpg

    Note :
    Water in 3rd.filter chamber flows up and through 2 x 4" PVC pipe into 4th. chamber (planning to add in bio-rings and grow plant here). Water from 4th chamber then flows down through another 2 x 4" PVC pipes to ths bottom of 5th filter chamber.

    Thank you very much Bro IKK and regards,
    ----------------happy sharing -----------.
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hello Bro Sunshine,
    First of all, i want to thank you for sharing and giving your valuable input in this discussion.

    I spent lot of time with my kois after work to relax. So for this reason, I want my pond to LOOK as calm and as quiet as possible accept for smooth flow of water from bakki shower down to the pond. I only want to see my kois swimming and feeding. So aeration inside the koi pond i think not.

    In the 4th chamber, I am planning to add in bio-rings and grow plant here. Yeap, you are right, will add areation to filter chambers 5, 6 and 7 for the good bacteria to work a lot more efficiently.

    This pond and bakki shower, i will DIY with the help of my son and some Indonesian workers. So cost will be light equipment, material and labor and not forgetting a standby petrol generator for water pump (150W x 240v). I still don't have a good idea how much is enough to built this pond.

    Thank you very much Bro Sunshine and regards,
    ----------------happy sharing -----------.
  • cookcpucookcpu March 2011
    Posts: 462
    Just to add, for the air pump. You can buy a timers to set at what time it should be on or off.

    Therefore, when you are not at home, the timer can set to be turn on the air pump.

    This is what I have just done to my pond air pump.
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa March 2011
    Posts: 260
    Bro. Max,

    You have already worked out a very detailed pond system and I am a bit reluctant to comment on the design becos'it may means further changes to the design.

    Anyway, here are some of my thoughts regarding the filtration system:-

    1) If possible, allow for at least a min. 3" pvc pipes from chamber 1,2,3,5,6 & 7 to the Dry Chamber instead of the current 2" pvc piping shown. Reasons being that the 2'pipes will has debris built-up internally over the years resulting in choke up pipings eventually.

    2) The Dry Chamber is too small in size for proper back flushing out of water from the other
    chamber to the Dry Chamber. Normally, it will require a great amount of water to be flushed out first follow by the debris/waste products. Hence, if the Dry Chamber is too small, the back flush water will fill up too quickly to even enable time for the debris out flow.

    3)Due to the different level between the Dry Chamber and the existing ground drain, I think you will required to install a automatic cut off pump to drain out the Dry Chamber.

    4)Problem will arise when you are doing a great amount of water changes. The problem will arise when the water level is below the water channel/chamber 4. Water from Chamber 1,2 & 3
    will not be able to flow through to Chamber 5,6 & 7. Hence, the water pump located in Chamber 7 may run into problem when the water run out. It maybe a better solution to place
    all the filtration chambers together to avoid this problem.

    5) It is not feasible to move the stacked Bakki Shower inorder to clean the chambers 5,6 & 7.
    It maybe better to have a concrete beam/timber post spanning across the width of the pond
    with the Bakki Shower sitting over it and the water discharge directly into the pond.

    6) I would get rid of the Chamber 4 which you have proposed for plants. Reasons being that the roots of the plants will trap waste products and eventually led to un-wanted water problems.

    Lastly, due to the small pond size, you may want to consider having a deeper pond.

    Cheers,
    Thiam Hwa


    Post edited by ThiamHwa at 2011-03-08 07:03:25 am
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Bro Cookcpu,
    Thank you for your valuable input. I wll seriously consider adding not a air pump but how about some aquarium submersible water pumps with ventury, and placed them along the wall below the bakki shower. These pumps are controled by a timer and relay (set to run from midnight till early morning). This should improve oxigen level and current flow inside the pond at night which is much needed.

    You have a very nice pond. I like the 63cm kuhaku and 55cm GR Sanke the most.

    Thank you Bro Cookcpu and best regards,
    ----------------happy sharing -----------.
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Bro ThiamHwa, very nice to hear from you.

    First thing i said loudly to myself is ------MATI LOH !!!!
    because all your advises made sense.

    1) Will increase to 3" pvc pipes from chamber 1,2,3,5,6 & 7 to the Dry Chamber. Will also increase dry chamber size to cope with pipes increase.

    2) This system do not have the privilege for back flush cleaning. As you have mention, all are too small for a proper back flushing. This system will only allow proper filter cleaning by means of draining away water inside filter chamber before flushing filter media with low or medium presurized water spray.

    3)For gravity water flow out, there is a limit on the depth of dry chamber because of the position of the public drain. Depth of dry chamber is now at maximum. As you have mention, I need to install an automatic cut off pump to drain water out if i will to go deeper.

    4)Thank you very much for rising this problem on large water change. With present pond design, no chance for large water change without stopping water pump and flow of water through filter chambers.

    I need to do slight modification here, that is to install a overflow 4" diameter pipe between filter chamber 7 and koi pond. 4" diameter overflow pipe can be block off during normal operation.

    For large water change, i will unblock 4" overflow pipe and shift water pump to 1st filter chamber for supplying water to 2nd chamber. Pond water will fill up in all filter chambers before it flows back to pond through the 4" overflow pipe in filter chamber 7. This will keep filter working at the same time filling up water through floatvalve located also in filter chamber 7. Bakki shower in idle condition during this period. Switch back after water reaches normal level.

    5) The bakki shower will be located inside an enclosure above filter chambers to reduce noise. Plan to use rubber sheet foam for walls of enclosure.

    6) Will keep chamber 4 but without plants. Stream flow through bio-rings also increase oxigen in water.

    Lastly and surely will try to make the depth of koi pond as deep as possible, stretching my budget to the limit.

    Very grateful to you, for spending much of your time studying my pond design and unselfishly sharing your priceless opinions and advises.

    Thank you Bro ThiamHwa and best regards,
    ------------happy sharing -----------.
  • ThiamHwaThiamHwa March 2011
    Posts: 260
    Bro Max,

    You may also want to consider introducing an extended 'T' joint to those 3nos. 3" bottom drain pipes from main pond to Chamber 1 with additional discharge outlets connected to the Dry Chamber. By this additional features, you have the option to back flush the bottom drain by discharging directly out to the Dry Chamber by plucking the outlets in Chamber 1 and un-plucking the outlets in the Dry Chamber. To stop out flow of water in the Dry Chamber, just close off these outlets by stand-up pvc pipes.

    It is important to get rid of the waste products from the pond system the soonest possible.

    Cheers,
    Thiam Hwa
  • cookcpucookcpu March 2011
    Posts: 462
    Bro Max,

    I wouldn't recommend using a timer on submersible pump as the start up load of the pump use a lot of watts and I am not sure how it affect the life span of the pump. (base on what I have read on the old forum)

    I guess using the submersible pump as venturis and also as improving the current flow of pond also a viable solution. One stone kill 2 birds. :)

    PS. My pond have 3 venturis and 3 airstone that link together to create a strong flow. I still believe in using an air pump in the pond especially my pond do not have a chiller.

    Thank you for your complimentary on my pond and koi. Cheers.
    Post edited by cookcpu at 2011-03-08 08:01:51 pm
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Dear Bro ThiamHwa,

    It is indeed very good and useful to be able to back flush main pond and bottom drains. I have never thought of this, that is why more brains is always better of one. No need to consider, i will add in this feature in my pond. Your idea is simple and can easily be done every day.

    Thank you very much for your valuable information and instructions.

    Thank you Bro ThiamHwa and best regards,
    ------------happy sharing -----------.



    Hi Cookcpu,

    I know that nowadays most high quality submersible pumps are designed to work very efficently, long lasting and maintenance free, when put to correct setup and working environment. From my working experence, most pump failed due to impeller blockages, dry running and fluctuating power supply (cause by loose connections or bad contacts).

    Very nice of you to share with me the venturies and airstones setup in your pond. You did mention about your pond do not have a chiller. Is there any different in temperature of the water in your pond with air pump and without air pump?

    Thank you Bro Cookcpu and best regards,
    ------------happy sharing -----------.
  • boykoiboykoi March 2011
    Posts: 186
    awesome details man! im an architect by profession and im also doing planning for my first pond. your pond definitely inspires me by its rich details. as to temperatures, having a deeper pond is more economical if you dont want to have a chiller set-up.i now a lot has been said about deep and shallow depths but its up to you. for me, just learning the basics will even cut more on cost in a pond set-up than we initialy think. thats why il alwys be a DIY person in this costly hobby hehe.

    im planning a similar set-up just like yours, but filter is pretty much different due to space constraints. 1 thing also about plumbing inflows, its better to test if you plan to add venturis. i had mine tested on my QT, nd havent glued them yet so as not to have difficulty changing ny fittings that wouldnt work.im planning aerated bottoms,though like you, the pond woud look like a jacuzzi but im convinced of the water excgange benefits than the view. planning on putting a glass viewing window at 1 side?im planning 1 so as to enjoy a view from the sides since our ponds are some level above ground.
  • cookcpucookcpu March 2011
    Posts: 462
    Bro Max,

    Using air pump won't lower the pond temperature. This is more as acting to help water to air interaction to oxygenate the pond water.
  • boykoiboykoi March 2011
    Posts: 186
    i noticed you havent planned for a sump chamber r a vortex chamber.you may experience frequent clogging and flow problems.not to mention frequent cleaning
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Boykoi, nice to hear from you.

    Yeah, this is the most expensive hobby that I have fall I love with. Not young anymore, so need to seriously consider the cost incur to built and to run this pond (its long term, maybe till the day my kois say goodbye to me when I go back to China) -----hahaha------

    I try to be as Mother Nature and environmental friendly as possible, not planning to have water chiller or heaters. I will try to use shades and sunlight to maintain water temperature. I am thinking of solar and wind energies also - just thinking though. And most importantly, I will try try and try my best not to overstock my pond.

    Yes, HOW DEEP CAN I GO? Referring to my koi pond drawing, average depth is 1288+1688 divided by 2 = 1488mm which is almost 5 feet. I guess is deep enough for me and my kois. Similar with you, I like to do things myself especially at home. If I succeed, I will feel tall and proud but if I failed, just keep quite lah. ---hehehe---

    This forum is really helpful, with people who are always ready to assist and share. Sometime one may overlook simple things but very critical to your pond setup, like for example - how safe is your pond when with children around?

    I guess ventury will work more efficiently when it is placed near to water surface. The deeper it is place the less air it can suck in. So there is a limit on how deep you can place your venturies. There are a lot of information on diy ventury in the web.

    Thank you for sharing your views and your pond setup. Good to have glass view window in your pond. You can also inspect the health of your kois without netting them. Must ensure strong and rigid frame for glass window.

    I did plan to have vortex chamber but given it up due to a lot of grey areas. So I decided to have a brush filter chamber instead (1st filter chamber). I agreed with you, vortex chamber is the best 1st filter, litter or no maintenance needed and easy to flush (flushing can be automated also). But no point having a vortex chamber that cannot efficiently draw in and settle down fish waste and other debris.

    Thank you Bro Boykoi for your inputs and reminders.

    Best regards,
    ------------happy sharing -----------.
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hi Bro Cookcpu,

    Thank you for your information on air pump and pond temperature.

    Best regards to you Sir,
    ------------happy sharing -----------.
  • tpsmaxwelltpsmaxwell March 2011
    Posts: 110
    Hope my pond can look like Skylar's Pond. So beautiful and calm.
  • boykoiboykoi March 2011
    Posts: 186
    yep, your right about costs. this hobby really isnt about who's who and whose great,. The most important thing here is as a hobbyist, you would very well know everything you can for what makes you happy, and to have optimum enjoyment for this hobby. I had pond trips were ive been to koi ponds as big as a resort swimming pool, but i cant even see the apparently top notch kois the owner is bragging about. The point is, you may have the biggest pond and the topnotch kois and of course the budget for it, but if you dont care for it seriously, then the point of the hobby becomes nil.

    i was staring for some time at your drawings, apparently the pod volume you have is almost similar to what i have planned. im planning for a 16ton pond with a 6 ton up down filter.

    your right about venturis, im planning 2 no.s at 1-2 ft from surfce for mid surface push. one of the most calm and undisturbed areas in a longish pond is right below the waterfall, apparently most would think that the waterfall return would create enough turbulence, while it may be right if yours is a 6 feet high return, but if its just a feet or two the deepest it can penetrate is only about a feet deep into the surface.thus youd have a very calm bottom. That is why i sloped my pnd like yours, about 4.5 feet and the other end at 6 ft, of which an aerated bottom would create enough turbulence and avoid dead spots.

    i noticed that your plan has 2 sides of it both filters, have you considered grouping them in 1 side?you may have some sort of risk making gravity throw of water lengthwise, its a risk i think is worth an experiment. i have also thought of this but ended up grouping them at the far end. i was planning on a plnt filter, but plants would die when you salt treat your pond.just a humble suggestion as i dont know your space limitations

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