Jumbo Tosai Discussion & Learning
  • KekwaKekwa March 2014
    Posts: 261
    The most recent Japan shipment have seen many koi farms brought in quite a number of so called 'Jumbo Tosais' from different Japanese breeders for sale.
    The sizes ranges from 35cm to as big as closed to 50cm. Of course the prices are also on the high side ranging from S$1K to S$3K per 'Jumbo Tosai'.
    Some of them come with certs, some don't.

    My question is as a hobbyist, how do we know these are really tosais?? :/
    What are the traits and characteristics to look out for, or just believe the farm owners' words?
    Can it be some of these so called 'Jumbo Tosais' are actually those tail end Nisais, and are being sold as Jumbo Tosais because they cannot be sold off Nisais due to their small size if they are deem Nisais?

    Do appreciate Koi Kichis here that have lots of experience with koi keeping and have some encounter with Japanese breeders share some of your knowledge and insight with regards to this topic.
    Really hope that there is participation on this subject and not another empty thread again.Thank you.
    Post edited by Kekwa at 2014-03-31 09:19:28 am
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    japan breeding seasons are around march till august
    jumbo tosai are kois that kept at concrete pond with heater and fed during winter season in japan so they grow more than the rest.
    usually they are the good quality from the batch/spawn and when at spring (march till june) the lower quality jumbo tosai are sold as tateshita, while some of the best are kept as tategoi tosai and to mud pond
    at early winter (sept - nov) those already become nisai and harvested from mudpond, they are sold as nisai, while the best are tategoi nisai and kept another year to sansai

    usually tosai gosanke have good "rather small" proportional fin and tail and in young tosai both of them are more transparant (you should compare to same bloodline in its age)

    you just put trust on those breeders...thats why big name like sakai, momotaro and dainichi sold fish much more expensive

    dont know about others but here in indonesia, tosai can grow to 55-60cm for gosanke and 60-65cm for kawari :D
    CMIIW

    han

  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Would be also good to include fast growth rate and the effect on lifespan into the discussion.
  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Oops double post.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-03-31 10:31:40 am
  • KekwaKekwa March 2014
    Posts: 261
    Hi bro han, Thanks for your feedback.
    You pointed out one thing thats very critical....'just put trust on those breeders'.

    My highlight here is do we just trust the words of the breeders and our local distributors.
    They show us a batch of fish that they term them as jumbo tosais, but how are we to be sure and what to look out for that we are not getting a smaller nisai that is of the end of the previous year?

    Example is if I buy a Tosai from my local distributor today of which the size is 45cm, and he told me it's a jumbo tosai and it's from June 2013 batch which falls nicely to what your breeding month of Mar till Aug window. How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, that this fish could be well be from Sep-Oct 2012 and that it may be well be just a small size nisai instead?

    What to observe to tell? Some hobbyists told me by grabbing the body of the fish if it feels hard and sturdy at both top and botom, it's tosai. If it feels soft at the bottom, it's already a nisai. Others like what you said, the pectorals should look more transparent.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    hi bro nivek
    there are consequences for unnatural growth (jumbos)...most of it's are the same like us human :P
    for koi : bent body (when some of bone cant grow as fast as flesh), dis colouration or stretch scales, stroke or heart attack maybe :-D

    i my self finding it very hard to keep tosais and larger koi (nisai or older) in same pond
    tosai koi are fast eater, while larger koi eat slowly
    so when you give more food to make sufficient to larger koi it will be to much for tosai koi...so they will overgrown and thats not what i want :(
    but if i give enough food just for tosai the larger koi will get slim (i never like slim large koi)
    do any sifus here have ways for this problem? please share it here

    anyway this are 3 tosai that i got at des-feb, 2 of them only cost me less than S$130 :D

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai17cm_zps39aa87d7.jpg
    sakai kohaku 17cm got it at end of december 13 (birth date aug 2013)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
    hi utsuri ginrin sakasume 16cm got it at end of december 13 (dont have certificate)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/duotosai1_zps2a625715.jpg
    a week later in my pond :)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
    taniguchi ochiba 21cm got it at early feb 14 (forgot to see birth date on certificate)

    this are video and picture that taken at 22 march (so almost 3 months period)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yJVlnROcbvo

    size around 39-40cm
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai_zpsbc330834.png
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NvQXVWCvGdE

    size around 36-37cm
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri_zpsf0740323.jpg

    haven't got pic of the ochiba too soon to see the difference, will update later
    jumbo tosai with low cost :)

    han
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-03-31 11:41:45 am
  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Very nice growth bro Han. I too believe the breeders stagger their fry releases - low grade (17-20cm), medium grade (35-50cm) jumbo tosais and high grade (nisai). The difference between 20cm to 50cm is only a couple of months so it makes sense in terms of economic gains to grow them to jumbos.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro kekwa
    because u mention earlier price range around S$1k to S$3k so i believe the JT came with certificate of breeder and also with date of birth and parents name(oyagoi) of the JT,
    that are prices for very good quality top breeder JT (sakai, momo, or dainichi), but even i've never heard tateshita JT for S$3k, i believe this is the price for show tosai or tategoi tosai (one that suppose to be go in nisai mud pond) that being sold because of good relation between dealer and breeder or maybe auction price.
    one more thing u could ask the local dealer when the JT arrive from japan, if it came at december or january, i think the koi is not tosai anymore.
    the only breeder from northern japan (niigata) that i know can produce 45cm JT only dainichi farm
    mean while in southern japan (hiroshima, kyushu) have more short winter time so koi from this area usually bigger. (sakai, momotaro, taniguchi, ogata and omosako)

    more about tosai, you might need trained eyes and lots of experience in first hand before you can judge if it was tosai or nisai, i think not many person have this ability

    look for skin lustre...usually tosai have rather soft skin, and most of small size nisai looks rather dull, cant really explain it by words but if you keep
    at some early age even the shiroji (white part) of the skin still pinkish (look at pic of my kohakus above), you wont get this at old fish

    @bro nivek
    tosai era now has so many differences, koi fans always expect more and more bigger size even at tosai age, now you can see more of 50cm tosai (high grade not medium :D)

    in japan koi farm there are 3 common grade that are sold to overseas that i know
    samban ochi (low grade)
    tateshita (medium to medium high) sometimes breeder don't have enough space in their mud pond, so they were the best batch of tosai that sold last tateshita
    tategoi (high)
    the grading is not only by size but quality overall and future expectations, there are some of tategoi tosai that i know sized only 25-35cm :P

    the fastest growth period that i experienced in tosai usually in size 15 to 50cm its down hill after, while the most growth i ever encounter was 10 cm/month
    so for now i think there is no chance to grow tosai 20cm to 50cm in couple of months (dunno if 5 or 10 years from now) :)
    but i agree for most breeders keeping to JT is for strategic economical gains :)

  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    thanks bro han for enlightening.....find 50cm tosai is not so difficult in jimbaran farm..... i ever post in this forum as well for (close to 50) tosai kohaku...bred by jimbaran. link http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/809/sharing-my-jumbo-tosai-kohaku/#Item_16

    well its really difficult to differentiate tosai and nisai.....few points already noted by bro han (pinkish shiroji, clear fin....). i will also look at the eye...must be not bulging eyes, beni also i prefer so so and not too sharp...but all and all, trust to the distributor or breeder is the key.
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2014-04-04 04:40:30 pm
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Hi Bros, Thanks for your contribution and feedback.
    I will try to post a picture of this fish I'm talking about and hope you guys can give more comments :)
  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    Quote " How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, "

    I think we can trust the Japanese breeders , it is the local distributors that you should be careful with. Again if you have dealt with the local dist long enough , you would know.

    ts



  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    Jumbo tosai does not mean the koi will grow jumbo, it depends on the gene and kept environment. During breeding , some babies will grow bigger than others , these are " natural jumbos" , with better chances to grow big. And if these are good quality, will most likely be kept to grow on nisai , and not sold as tosai. Most jumbos tosai we see are "raised jumbo" , they are luckier to be kept and grown over winter. If the jumbo gene is not present , they and most will , grow to same size as their less lucky bros and sisters later at nisai / sansai stage.

    So having know this , personally if i would be paying the same for a choice of jumbo tosai or nisai , i would get a nisai.

    ts
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,248
    Logical , more likely for a karashi or chagoi , non gosanke. Seldom if any see it locally with a gosanke. I have a karashi growing like that , now Yonsai abt 87+cm from tosai.

    It is good to have patience to grow kois .

    ts
  • frostbitezfrostbitez April 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro kekwa
    i've got 16months of benigoi (sakai, dynamite spawn) size about 70cm at dec 2012...now after 14 months later it only grow 8cm :)
    koi growth are not like that generally, i think :-D
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-04-09 07:20:09 pm
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Exactly. Bcos this person does not believe the sakai sanke I got is a jumbo tosai at 44cm (spawn May 2013 as per cert) and insisted is a tail end undergrowth nisai.
    Hence he used the analogy that I described above and told me that if mine is really jumbo tosai, it should grow in that manner.
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Interesting read guys.......
    I until today, I am trying to grasp what a Jumbo Tosai is? Definitely not Jumbo growth potential. From what I gather, Jumbo Tosais are those that are significantly bigger than their peers. How this come about? This can be a lengthy discussion, but nevertheless, we can discuss this later.

    So, can we actually tell whether a Tosai is in fact a Jumbo Tosai versus those not allowed to grow to Nisai size!!! Well, I believe even the experts find difficulties to initially differentiate......

    So how to ensure that we are not conned! I believe we have to deal with professional dealers/middle man/breeders.........

    Have I been conned before??? Sure! A few times........ but I get smarter each time.......

    Nowadays, I am very safe.......... why??? Because I trust my dealer! He treasures the friendship more than selling kois.......

    Hope what I have shared helps you KEKWA.....
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-04-16 08:52:08 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    Welcome back to forum abang shukri....we are missing ur comment.....already too long inactive :-)
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    TQ Bro Ming.......... :-D
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  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    TQ Bro Shukri for your insights. You are very right. Most of us hobbyists have got conned before in on way or another. But we should learn as we progress.
    Lets see how my fish turns out to be. If she doesn't grow, I will never step into that dealer's farm again... :p
  • pohbengpohbeng April 2014
    Posts: 114
    Bro Kekwa....if your fish is a controlled growth Nisai...it will achieve superb growth rate in your pond....

    I've kept such nisai before, bought at 30cm. (bought in Jan) but she was able to reach 60 within the 1yr in my pond, and subsequently 70cm in the next year. Maybe it is an exceptional case.

    In fact, I believed many of the fresh imports 30-40 cm koi avail in Dec/Jan were such nisai, and they have been performing well in growth rate for many hobbyist.

    However, if dealer import the tosai at 15-20cm in Oct, they will reach 30-40 in our water by Dec/Jan.

    Have you heard before on dealers pack their farm koi in the morning, send to a chill warehouse, and bring in as fresh import in the night? :P
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Wow bro pb, your last statement indeed open me to the ugly side. But to be realistic, dealers n farms want to convert their fishes to $$$$. Some will do it the right way, while some may not
  • pohbengpohbeng April 2014
    Posts: 114
    haha...end of day....

    I buy fish based on what I like...
    use eye to choose fish...not ears.

    forget about the name, forget about the cert.
    have faith and trust in your dealer(s)... :-D

    they make their money...we enjoy our hobby....
    the rest of stuff, just ignore it!
    ;-) :)
    Post edited by pohbeng at 2014-04-17 02:12:14 pm
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    At the end of the day............ all of us will grow up. The more we learn, the more we know, and the more we know, kind of hard for people to trick us.......
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  • kolampkolamp April 2014
    Posts: 222
    From this hobby that I've learned, the more we know, the less we buy...but less doesn't mean we can save some money :p
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar April 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    Less we buy in quantity, but monetory wise, more and more expensive koi :-)) :-))
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Ya ka Kolamp and BT? :-D
    Surely not far from the truth........ :-))
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-04-17 06:37:16 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    If we ask ourselves...assuming price is exactly same and koi quality is 99% same, which one are u choosing? Jumbo tosai or tosai? I believe for every created market there will be targeted segment. Question is who is the targeted segment and why they willing to buy for such a different size in very young age? Koi may reach 5 years or more with proper caring and between 1-5 year is really a long journey. Why do we want to pay more? If u ask me, wit my very limited knowledge and experience i will select bigger one, with hope she can grew faster. But when it priced at >50% higher than ordinary tosai, i will go to tosai and let time decide its future growth...
  • frostbitezfrostbitez April 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro grinkz
    maybe if it is cost 50% more i'll go with JT (almost the same quality)...we get better chance at appetite for food and less chance to get male koi (at 30cm ++ size it is easier to look for fish sex)
    just my 2 cents
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar April 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    IMHO, I don't care they are jumbo tosai or tosai. I just look for best strong body within the group and interesting skin/pattern. Sooner or later they would grow big. :-))
    Jumbo tosai doesn't mean become jumbo immediately, it will take time to groom them.

    My jumbo tosai Showa 35 cm after two years 55-60 cm, my tosai karashi of 20 cm after 15 months 65 cm ++, still worry on Jumbo tosai bro?? :-))
  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    i will take ur opinion as my brainwash bro TK.....really not worthed to pay very high for just what so called as JT
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    TK and Bro Ming,
    I use to go for Jumbo Tosais, but nowadays I am relax a bit...... Am still eyeing for the good body even at Tosais, but these days I look at the over all quality too. These days, I will go for Nisais rather than Tosais.......... save money in the long run........

    Look who is talking right!!! :-D

    But of course growing from Tosais are a lot of fun........
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  • wklimwklim April 2014
    Posts: 97
    I also agree with Sifu Bros that a trusted dealer, who knows his koi, counts most.

    In my 1st hobby year, I used to buy quite a lot of gosanke "jumbo tosai", but after 2+ yrs the biggest koi (sanke) was around 61cm. On hindsight, I should have guessed from the pricing as well.

    I almost give up on my 3-ton pond, until a dealer asked about my situation and showed me 2 sanke from an overcrowded pond. I was very hesitant when he told me they were male, nisai (18 months) and measured only 30cm... but the dealer said no harm trying.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15510/20110625_30-32cm.jpg

    Try I did and after 3 yrs, the bottom-most sanke is now 75cm in my pond :)
    It's not jumbo by any means, but it's a good feeling to grow out the fish and hopefully more years to come.
    Post edited by wklim at 2014-04-19 10:21:43 pm
  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    bro wklim..inspiring story......3ton can grow 75cm...superb keeping must be! do u have recent pict of the sanke?

    note: kohaku on top is stunning piece also.
  • wklimwklim April 2014
    Posts: 97
    Thanks a lot, Bro grinkz01 :)

    Sorry I did not take any photos when measuring last week, but will share the next time around (prob during pond servicing). However, I have an old video of this sanke back in Nov 2012, measuring 67cm:



    I wished I knew exactly what I did right/wrong in the keeping... I just made sure to flush the filter weekly and feed quality pallets. I think the remaining 90% is with the fish :)

    Bro, the "kohaku" is actually a male sanke ;) Also in my pond, but not growing at fast as the above piece.
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    There you go.......... who says tha male cant bulk up and grow big....... :-D
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  • wklimwklim April 2014
    Posts: 97
    Bros, just to share and hope I can come back to update this thread with personal experience...

    I visited my dealer today and we spoke about this jumbo tosai topic. He then showed me 2 tosai (30cm & 33cm, unknown gender), which he thinks has good chance of growing >70cm with quality:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15526/IMG_30196.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15527/IMG_30343.jpg

    I couldn't resist and bagged the smaller kuchibeni for my OVERCROWDED pond banghead

    It cost me more than 2 Ikarashi kohaku tosai I got recently... the trust with my dealer is again put to the test...
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar April 2014
    Posts: 1,763
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Very good TK.........
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  • frostbitezfrostbitez April 2014
    Posts: 109
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar April 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    Thanks Sifu Shukri, it's a good jumbo potential. Only problem, beni strecth even if i control feeding and feed color food. So for now going slow for this lady.

    Bro Frost, tosai 60cm??? Well my pocket not that deep for that wo. I might as well enjoy it in photos :-))
  • frostbitezfrostbitez April 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro kumar
    cant get that size from japan farm bro...if it is good quality surely they kept for tategoi or future oyagoi my pockets are not that deep also hahaha

    i my self never grow tosai that big before the biggest tosai i ever grown is about 55cm so far...but now i got kohaku (17cm at december) that might be have potential to grow to that size (hopefully :P)
    now it has size around 41cm at 8 months (birth date on certificate august 13)
    can it still have good skin and overall quality if growing that fast?
    before i am targeting 55cm at end of tosai year, but 60cm? challenge accepted! :D :D :D

    will update later bro!
    han

  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    TK,
    Well in life, the faster growers have stretch mark laaaa....... cant be helped!!! :-D
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  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar April 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    :-)) :-)) Agree
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/kohaku1_zpse3676340.jpg
    update on kohaku tosai ^_^ 40.5cm
    this kohaku get 2nd prize at 40bu last month at koi show in indonesia...not bad i think since i heard that the 1st prize was bought at 300.000Yen
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-04 06:39:41 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro frostbitez,
    Nice looking Kohaku there....... nice 3 steps with Maruten. Love the Shiroji. The Kohaku is still young, I like the kata area.....will eventually develop a hump there which will be nice....

    Please give an update from time to time..........
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  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro frostbitez, really nice Kohaku (Y)
  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
    Nice Hi and sharp Kiwa as well. But this khk may remain short and stout.
    So 2nd prize bought at how much xxxxxxyen? :-D
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Kekwa,
    Any reasons in your opinion that you have observed that this koi should be short and stout? Please share..........
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-05 12:42:52 pm
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro frosbotez,

    Congrats on your win.

    Bro shukri,

    I feel also that the maruten kohaku may look short for the reason that its nose is too short, with a massive upperbody and a shorter body frame. However, I have seen Dainichi kohaku that were more girthy and breeder still confident that koi can reach jumbo given the right environment.

    I still believe though in a small to medium size pond 15 to 40tons, it will be easier to raise jumbo with a bloodline that grows long first then add girth at a later stage. In very large pond where koi gets to exercise more a girthy koi can grow faster and better chance to reach jumbo without problems.
  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
    Bro Shukri,

    Just based on first impression when I looked at the broad girth of this tosai and at the angle the picture was taken. If have opportunity to see the real fish, my opinion may be different.
    Nonetheless a stunning looking khk jumbo tosai. Should win more prizes in her days to come. Is it from momotaro?
  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
    This is my Sakai sanke that made me to start this thread.
    Many still think she is a nisai and that I've been taken for a ride. Whatever it is, I've gotten over it and just continue to keep her and see how she develops from here :)
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15650/IMG_3706.png
    Attachments
    IMG_3706.png 168K
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Kekwa,
    Your Momotaro piece is looking nice.........
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  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-05 04:35:37 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Oops sorry there Bro Kekwa.......
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  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    I dont get the fascination with girthy koi at a young age and then size possibly stalls in length instead of koi that grow faster in length first then possibly not girth? To make a koi girth once its metabolism slows down is easier compared to make a koi with slow metabolism grow.

    Many hobbyist here like matsunosuke sankes as compared to Malaysia, singapore, etc.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-05-05 05:33:59 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    That's the beauty of this hobby............different hobbyists prefer different things. That's how the world evolve. If everyone likes a Toyota, then the other brands will vanish with time.

    Not everyone likes big kois above 80cm......... Eventhough I like Jumbos, so far I do not have any swimming in my pond.......
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  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    I do not believe there is a big percentage of hobbyist who do not like jumbo. The fact that farms that are consistently able to produce high quality jumbo koi attest to this observation. However if there is a choice of choosing a poor quality jumbo vs a high quality smaller koi, then the smaller higher quality koi wins.

    The key IMO in aiming for high quality jumbo gosanke koi without breaking the bank is to forget about koi show and even go with unpopular pattern as long as the signs of jumbohood and high quality longer lasting skin is there.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Very true, but there are a few that are not fond of Jumbos........... and for certain that I belong to the group that are obssess with big large bodies..... :-D

    Growing Jumbos are not a problem to some hobbyists here in Malaysia........but a koi over 80cm has aluded me so far.......... Hope one day I will be there........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-06 07:34:14 am
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-06 12:08:17 am
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117

    Actually 300k yen tosai range can be the following from the breeder based on what I have been offered:
    1. Simple non appealing pattern with good skin with long body and long big head and thick ozutzu
    2. Award winning pattern like above with good skin which is koi show potential already

    Question: why are both priced the same? Why is the award winning tosai with great pattern not kept by breeder for another year to be sold for at least 600k? Why is some simple pattern tosai being sold by the breeder/dealer for same price as well?



    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-05-06 01:49:49 am
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Would love to hear the answers from Bro HDCu...........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117


    300k yen tosai is considered very high quality koi with most famous breeders in Japan and can even be put in the mudpond already to be raised as nisai however these prices are not yet the top ten ranked tosai yet.

    Now if the breeder thinks a koi has good skin, good girthy body and great pattern and a female enough for it to win easily in a koi show in smaller size then 300k is justifiable.

    If the breeder thinks a female tosai has good skin, good body conformation for its size based on his knowledge on his bloodline, with great potential to ba a big beautiful koi in the future even if it does not win a koi show then he will price it 300k as well.

    If we are talking about what would have a chance to win in a koi show then the first one has higher chance.
    If we are talking about whats the bigger chance one ends up with a high quality jumbo in the future then the latter is more appropriate choice.

    If you want both jumbo and big chance to win as GC then prepare to spend more.




  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-06 03:00:47 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Nice Sanke Han......... (Y) Hope the already nice Sumi to be lacquer Black.......
    For a minute there, I thought this is a Doitsu Sanke......... I cant really see the scales.
    A truly remarkable Sanke.............
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-06 03:53:34 pm
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    With regards to Bro @Kekwa original question, just to share a photo of my 3 koi fries at 1 month old, all of which were born on the same day from the same parents. As you can see the size difference is really significant even at this early age.

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/15654/koi fries.jpg
    Attachments
    koi fries.jpg 139K
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-07 08:51:30 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    hi guys
    yesterday i'm starting to renovating my pond so while moving out the fishes i took some pics of my 2 tosai
    this are development of this tosais

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
    21cm @early feb
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hh_zps4c365a05.jpg
    40-41cm @may

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
    16cm @end dec
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1finalss_zpse1bf1916.jpg
    43cm @may

    growth are not special but now they are count as jumbo tosai with very cheap price :-D
    han
  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
    Wow bro han, your grooming skills solid!
    Love your ginrin hi utsuri growth... (Y)
  • gerrygerry May 2014
    Posts: 777
    =P~ =D>
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Not bad Bro Han.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Hi Bros,

    It's been 1 year and I have latest updates to share on my own kohaku tosai grow-out :)

    A bit of history first... back in Apr'14, four kohaku tosai (8 - 10 months old) went into my pond when they were around 30cm - 32cm. Three of the bigger ones were from a well-known breeder and supposedly jumbo tosai batch. The dealer then recommended a fourth tosai from another pond by his regular breeder. It was the smallest at 30cm and also has pale yellow beni, but I liked the kucibeni pattern and overall package.

    I couldn't believe when I was quoted the kuchibeni's price, which was as much as all the other three "jumbo tosai" in total... my dealer just said he's not sure yet how the jumbo tosai batch will develop, so he's already discounting on them! banghead

    Side-by-side pic of the kuchibeni tosai (30cm) and one of the bigger "jumbo tosai" (32cm) below:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17515/1.jpg

    At 12 months old, you can see the jumbo tosai is still slightly ahead in growth. Just scroll to video mid-point, when both surface to feed:






    Then, something magical happened in the next 12 months :) At 24 months old, the biggest jumbo tosai is now 58cm, but the kuchibeni had grown to 70cm! I just bowled them yesterday and was really surprised at the actual size. Here's the "after" side-by-side pic:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17514/2.jpg




    It's probably not clear from the picture/video, but other than size, the difference in skin quality is also visibily obvious now. They were grown from around the same size/age, fed the same food and subjected to the same environment.

    For me, this is one of the most personal and enjoyable lesson I had in my years of keeping koi... genetics alone make a BIG difference! A trusted and knowledgeable dealer also helps if you are serious about your koi :D

    Happy koi keeping!
    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-05 02:41:15 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Very good and surprising outcome bro (Y)
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Thanks a lot, Bro Borman :)
    Yes, it was a really exceptional koi which surprised everyone.

    I hope Bros will enjoy this solo video as much as I did:




    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-07 01:44:50 am
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro WKLim,

    Well done keeping them from 30 to 70cm in 2 yrs ? ( from April 2014 or was it 2013?)
    Very nice body and hump on the kuchibeni. Still a long way to go so don't give up on the other 3" jumbo" tosai :-)) more surprises to come ? Are they from Hoshikin ? male/female ?

    ts
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Thank you, Bro TS! The kuchibeni was from 2013 breeding season, but I only got her from my dealer in Apr'14 @ 30cm.

    Yup, no intention to give up the other 3 kohaku (all females) from Igarashi. They are now 55cm - 58cm and still in good shape with nice red beni contrasting against good white ;) I'm keen to observe the development over the years.
  • July_88July_88 June 2015
    Posts: 2
    wow... thats a surprise man. I think a good dealer really is important
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Yes bro, I think it helps greatly to have the right dealer/breeder support, while learning a great deal from them and senior hobbyists.
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Bros, just to share another new accquisition on this thread for future update and learning:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17517/35cm.jpg

    This sanke tosai (ake nisai?) is from 2014 breeding season and currently 35cm. I had been eyeing it since arrival last Dec, but my dealer didn't want to release at that time. It took some "arm twisting" for me to finally secure it last weekend ;)

    There's some question mark around the secondary hi on the second step, but I think it's worth the risk considering the overall quality looks good to me... I was told it was never fed colour food as well.



    Let's see again in a few months time! :)
    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-09 12:00:04 am
    Attachments
    35cm.jpg 96K
  • KekwaKekwa June 2015
    Posts: 261
    Great sharing bro wklim.
    So the kuchibeni is from another farm?
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    bro wklim,

    i have issues with the sanke , which farm ? . 2 things
    a) The 2nd step - sashi and kiwa both seems to have secondary hi . More to come or will it consolidate.
    b) The head looks short due to short distance between eyes and mouth.
    c) Body at shoulder and tail ozutsu looks weak , unlikely to grow big.

    Hope i am wrong , pls keep us updated. In your hands may grow like the kohaku (Y)
    and we all learn something.

    ts
    Post edited by lauts at 2015-06-10 01:11:54 pm
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Thanks a lot, Bro Kekwa! :) The kuchibeni is from Murakami koi farm and supposedly from Benkei (36th All Japan GC) lineage.

    The story is that Murakami bought Benkei as a small nisai from Sakai FF, then sold her to a famous JP hobbyist and groomed her till crowned GC @ 91cm. Benkei then became a parent koi for Murakami. How do I know? My dealer was apparently invovled, having drove Benkei for 16 hours between the farm and show grounds!
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Hi Bro TS,

    I appreciate your honest thoughts :) This sanke tosai is also from Murakami koi farm.

    Believe it or not, these same thoughts crossed my mind earlier when seeing the fish for the first time. But my thoughts shifted upon seeing that it has one of the most promising shape and pattern, compared to other siblings in the batch. No denying that I also place certain trust in my dealer's recommendation.

    I hope you are wrong too :D but I really doubt we will see another exceptional example (the kuchibeni really slipped the net.. luckily into my pond!). Frankly, I think it's anybody's guess how the fish itself will develop over time. I will be well pleased if it can show improvement all round and any surprises will be a bonus.

    I look forward to more sharing and learning on this example! :)
    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-10 02:41:59 pm
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro wklim,

    Now the secret is out , why you wanted the sanke. Looks like i will be wrong on the sanke. So now for you to make it good :-D . We seldom see murakami kois here in Msia i think but the story is fascinating , thanks for sharing .

    ts
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Bro TS, the sanke far from guarantee leh, but yes I'm up for the challenge! No pressure :D

    I think Murakami kois are quite interesting in their development and hopefully bros in MY can see more of them. For learning, I for one will be just as interested to see more examples of koi development here. The more the better! :)
  • lautslauts September 2016
    Posts: 1,248
    Bumped for discussion and updates :-D


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