Jumbo Tosai Discussion & Learning
  • KekwaKekwa March 2014
    Posts: 261
    The most recent Japan shipment have seen many koi farms brought in quite a number of so called 'Jumbo Tosais' from different Japanese breeders for sale.
    The sizes ranges from 35cm to as big as closed to 50cm. Of course the prices are also on the high side ranging from S$1K to S$3K per 'Jumbo Tosai'.
    Some of them come with certs, some don't.

    My question is as a hobbyist, how do we know these are really tosais?? :/
    What are the traits and characteristics to look out for, or just believe the farm owners' words?
    Can it be some of these so called 'Jumbo Tosais' are actually those tail end Nisais, and are being sold as Jumbo Tosais because they cannot be sold off Nisais due to their small size if they are deem Nisais?

    Do appreciate Koi Kichis here that have lots of experience with koi keeping and have some encounter with Japanese breeders share some of your knowledge and insight with regards to this topic.
    Really hope that there is participation on this subject and not another empty thread again.Thank you.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    japan breeding seasons are around march till august
    jumbo tosai are kois that kept at concrete pond with heater and fed during winter season in japan so they grow more than the rest.
    usually they are the good quality from the batch/spawn and when at spring (march till june) the lower quality jumbo tosai are sold as tateshita, while some of the best are kept as tategoi tosai and to mud pond
    at early winter (sept - nov) those already become nisai and harvested from mudpond, they are sold as nisai, while the best are tategoi nisai and kept another year to sansai

    usually tosai gosanke have good "rather small" proportional fin and tail and in young tosai both of them are more transparant (you should compare to same bloodline in its age)

    you just put trust on those breeders...thats why big name like sakai, momotaro and dainichi sold fish much more expensive

    dont know about others but here in indonesia, tosai can grow to 55-60cm for gosanke and 60-65cm for kawari :D
    CMIIW

    han

  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Would be also good to include fast growth rate and the effect on lifespan into the discussion.
  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Oops double post.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-03-31 10:31:40 am
  • KekwaKekwa March 2014
    Posts: 261
    Hi bro han, Thanks for your feedback.
    You pointed out one thing thats very critical....'just put trust on those breeders'.

    My highlight here is do we just trust the words of the breeders and our local distributors.
    They show us a batch of fish that they term them as jumbo tosais, but how are we to be sure and what to look out for that we are not getting a smaller nisai that is of the end of the previous year?

    Example is if I buy a Tosai from my local distributor today of which the size is 45cm, and he told me it's a jumbo tosai and it's from June 2013 batch which falls nicely to what your breeding month of Mar till Aug window. How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, that this fish could be well be from Sep-Oct 2012 and that it may be well be just a small size nisai instead?

    What to observe to tell? Some hobbyists told me by grabbing the body of the fish if it feels hard and sturdy at both top and botom, it's tosai. If it feels soft at the bottom, it's already a nisai. Others like what you said, the pectorals should look more transparent.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    hi bro nivek
    there are consequences for unnatural growth (jumbos)...most of it's are the same like us human :P
    for koi : bent body (when some of bone cant grow as fast as flesh), dis colouration or stretch scales, stroke or heart attack maybe :-D

    i my self finding it very hard to keep tosais and larger koi (nisai or older) in same pond
    tosai koi are fast eater, while larger koi eat slowly
    so when you give more food to make sufficient to larger koi it will be to much for tosai koi...so they will overgrown and thats not what i want :(
    but if i give enough food just for tosai the larger koi will get slim (i never like slim large koi)
    do any sifus here have ways for this problem? please share it here

    anyway this are 3 tosai that i got at des-feb, 2 of them only cost me less than S$130 :D

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai17cm_zps39aa87d7.jpg
    sakai kohaku 17cm got it at end of december 13 (birth date aug 2013)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
    hi utsuri ginrin sakasume 16cm got it at end of december 13 (dont have certificate)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/duotosai1_zps2a625715.jpg
    a week later in my pond :)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
    taniguchi ochiba 21cm got it at early feb 14 (forgot to see birth date on certificate)

    this are video and picture that taken at 22 march (so almost 3 months period)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yJVlnROcbvo

    size around 39-40cm
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sakai_zpsbc330834.png
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NvQXVWCvGdE

    size around 36-37cm
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri_zpsf0740323.jpg

    haven't got pic of the ochiba too soon to see the difference, will update later
    jumbo tosai with low cost :)

    han
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-03-31 11:41:45 am
  • niveknivek March 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Very nice growth bro Han. I too believe the breeders stagger their fry releases - low grade (17-20cm), medium grade (35-50cm) jumbo tosais and high grade (nisai). The difference between 20cm to 50cm is only a couple of months so it makes sense in terms of economic gains to grow them to jumbos.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez March 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro kekwa
    because u mention earlier price range around S$1k to S$3k so i believe the JT came with certificate of breeder and also with date of birth and parents name(oyagoi) of the JT,
    that are prices for very good quality top breeder JT (sakai, momo, or dainichi), but even i've never heard tateshita JT for S$3k, i believe this is the price for show tosai or tategoi tosai (one that suppose to be go in nisai mud pond) that being sold because of good relation between dealer and breeder or maybe auction price.
    one more thing u could ask the local dealer when the JT arrive from japan, if it came at december or january, i think the koi is not tosai anymore.
    the only breeder from northern japan (niigata) that i know can produce 45cm JT only dainichi farm
    mean while in southern japan (hiroshima, kyushu) have more short winter time so koi from this area usually bigger. (sakai, momotaro, taniguchi, ogata and omosako)

    more about tosai, you might need trained eyes and lots of experience in first hand before you can judge if it was tosai or nisai, i think not many person have this ability

    look for skin lustre...usually tosai have rather soft skin, and most of small size nisai looks rather dull, cant really explain it by words but if you keep
    at some early age even the shiroji (white part) of the skin still pinkish (look at pic of my kohakus above), you wont get this at old fish

    @bro nivek
    tosai era now has so many differences, koi fans always expect more and more bigger size even at tosai age, now you can see more of 50cm tosai (high grade not medium :D)

    in japan koi farm there are 3 common grade that are sold to overseas that i know
    samban ochi (low grade)
    tateshita (medium to medium high) sometimes breeder don't have enough space in their mud pond, so they were the best batch of tosai that sold last tateshita
    tategoi (high)
    the grading is not only by size but quality overall and future expectations, there are some of tategoi tosai that i know sized only 25-35cm :P

    the fastest growth period that i experienced in tosai usually in size 15 to 50cm its down hill after, while the most growth i ever encounter was 10 cm/month
    so for now i think there is no chance to grow tosai 20cm to 50cm in couple of months (dunno if 5 or 10 years from now) :)
    but i agree for most breeders keeping to JT is for strategic economical gains :)

  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    thanks bro han for enlightening.....find 50cm tosai is not so difficult in jimbaran farm..... i ever post in this forum as well for (close to 50) tosai kohaku...bred by jimbaran. link http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/809/sharing-my-jumbo-tosai-kohaku/#Item_16

    well its really difficult to differentiate tosai and nisai.....few points already noted by bro han (pinkish shiroji, clear fin....). i will also look at the eye...must be not bulging eyes, beni also i prefer so so and not too sharp...but all and all, trust to the distributor or breeder is the key.
    Post edited by grinkz01 at 2014-04-04 04:40:30 pm
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Hi Bros, Thanks for your contribution and feedback.
    I will try to post a picture of this fish I'm talking about and hope you guys can give more comments :)
  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,247
    Bros,

    Quote " How can I tell he's telling the truth or that he himself is not 'conned' by the Japanese breeder as well, "

    I think we can trust the Japanese breeders , it is the local distributors that you should be careful with. Again if you have dealt with the local dist long enough , you would know.

    ts



  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,247
    Bros,

    Jumbo tosai does not mean the koi will grow jumbo, it depends on the gene and kept environment. During breeding , some babies will grow bigger than others , these are " natural jumbos" , with better chances to grow big. And if these are good quality, will most likely be kept to grow on nisai , and not sold as tosai. Most jumbos tosai we see are "raised jumbo" , they are luckier to be kept and grown over winter. If the jumbo gene is not present , they and most will , grow to same size as their less lucky bros and sisters later at nisai / sansai stage.

    So having know this , personally if i would be paying the same for a choice of jumbo tosai or nisai , i would get a nisai.

    ts
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Bros,

    Jumbo tosai does not mean the koi will grow jumbo, it depends on the gene and kept environment. During breeding , some babies will grow bigger than others , these are " natural jumbos" , with better chances to grow big. And if these are good quality, will most likely be kept to grow on nisai , and not sold as tosai. Most jumbos tosai we see are "raised jumbo" , they are luckier to be kept and grown over winter. If the jumbo gene is not present , they and most will , grow to same size as their less lucky bros and sisters later at nisai / sansai stage.

    So having know this , personally if i would be paying the same for a choice of jumbo tosai or nisai , i would get a nisai.

    ts


    Thanks bro ts for your inputs.
    I am very glad you made this statement that jumbo tosai does not meant the koi will become a jumbo koi.
    This is because this person told me that if I got a jumbo tosai at say 40+cm, this means this koi grows 4cm almost every month to reach this size. She should be deemed as a real potential jumbo fish! Since she has such potential, in her 2nd year, she should grow at an average between 2.5-3cm per month, and in her 3rd year 1.5cm per month. This means she should reach at least 90cm by Yonsai :-))
  • lautslauts April 2014
    Posts: 1,247
    Logical , more likely for a karashi or chagoi , non gosanke. Seldom if any see it locally with a gosanke. I have a karashi growing like that , now Yonsai abt 87+cm from tosai.

    It is good to have patience to grow kois .

    ts
  • frostbitezfrostbitez April 2014
    Posts: 109
    @bro kekwa
    i've got 16months of benigoi (sakai, dynamite spawn) size about 70cm at dec 2012...now after 14 months later it only grow 8cm :)
    koi growth are not like that generally, i think :-D
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-04-09 07:20:09 pm
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    Exactly. Bcos this person does not believe the sakai sanke I got is a jumbo tosai at 44cm (spawn May 2013 as per cert) and insisted is a tail end undergrowth nisai.
    Hence he used the analogy that I described above and told me that if mine is really jumbo tosai, it should grow in that manner.
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Interesting read guys.......
    I until today, I am trying to grasp what a Jumbo Tosai is? Definitely not Jumbo growth potential. From what I gather, Jumbo Tosais are those that are significantly bigger than their peers. How this come about? This can be a lengthy discussion, but nevertheless, we can discuss this later.

    So, can we actually tell whether a Tosai is in fact a Jumbo Tosai versus those not allowed to grow to Nisai size!!! Well, I believe even the experts find difficulties to initially differentiate......

    So how to ensure that we are not conned! I believe we have to deal with professional dealers/middle man/breeders.........

    Have I been conned before??? Sure! A few times........ but I get smarter each time.......

    Nowadays, I am very safe.......... why??? Because I trust my dealer! He treasures the friendship more than selling kois.......

    Hope what I have shared helps you KEKWA.....
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-04-16 08:52:08 pm
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • grinkz01grinkz01 April 2014
    Posts: 530
    Welcome back to forum abang shukri....we are missing ur comment.....already too long inactive :-)
  • ShukriShukri April 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    TQ Bro Ming.......... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • KekwaKekwa April 2014
    Posts: 261
    TQ Bro Shukri for your insights. You are very right. Most of us hobbyists have got conned before in on way or another. But we should learn as we progress.
    Lets see how my fish turns out to be. If she doesn't grow, I will never step into that dealer's farm again... :p
  • pohbengpohbeng April 2014
    Posts: 114
    Bro Kekwa....if your fish is a controlled growth Nisai...it will achieve superb growth rate in your pond....

    I've kept such nisai before, bought at 30cm. (bought in Jan) but she was able to reach 60 within the 1yr in my pond, and subsequently 70cm in the next year. Maybe it is an exceptional case.

    In fact, I believed many of the fresh imports 30-40 cm koi avail in Dec/Jan were such nisai, and they have been performing well in growth rate for many hobbyist.

    However, if dealer import the tosai at 15-20cm in Oct, they will reach 30-40 in our water by Dec/Jan.

    Have you heard before on dealers pack their farm koi in the morning, send to a chill warehouse, and bring in as fresh import in the night? :P

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