Jumbo Tosai Discussion & Learning
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Very true, but there are a few that are not fond of Jumbos........... and for certain that I belong to the group that are obssess with big large bodies..... :-D

    Growing Jumbos are not a problem to some hobbyists here in Malaysia........but a koi over 80cm has aluded me so far.......... Hope one day I will be there........
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-06 07:34:14 am
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    That's the beauty of this hobby............different hobbyists prefer different things. That's how the world evolve. If everyone likes a Toyota, then the other brands will vanish with time.

    Not everyone likes big kois above 80cm......... Eventhough I like Jumbos, so far I do not have any swimming in my pond.......


    i agree with you with this one bro shukri
    people do prefer different things
    anyway i hope you dont see strech mark at my kohaku for growing 24cm @4 months :)

    I dont get the fascination with girthy koi at a young age and then size possibly stalls in length instead of koi that grow faster in length first then possibly not girth? To make a koi girth once its metabolism slows down is easier compared to make a koi with slow metabolism grow.

    Many hobbyist here like matsunosuke sankes as compared to Malaysia, singapore, etc.


    imho
    there was time that i believe that also...until i prove it is not true :)
    koi also can grow length fast with bulky posture even since small size...its all just in genes and keeping style
    i've had 2 of them just like that both are not expensive koi but both grow nicely with girth along the process
    will post here if you guys dont mind...
    And i've seen a group tosai sakai that priced more than 250,000 yen...none of them are sleek, they all have girth with serious hump/ bone at shoulder area, yeah they tend to be seen as short bodied, but that just because the girth proportion are different
    yeah some dealer might say the sleek and long bodied fish that they sold are better but the breeder price told us the opposite :)

    anyway this is the 1st price winner that they said was bought @300.000Y tosai

    http://koishow.koi-s.org/images/koireduce/KFS-2014-4-25-Imperial-5-MRT-01.jpg

    not so sleek also :)

    cheers
    han
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-06 12:08:17 am
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,112

    Actually 300k yen tosai range can be the following from the breeder based on what I have been offered:
    1. Simple non appealing pattern with good skin with long body and long big head and thick ozutzu
    2. Award winning pattern like above with good skin which is koi show potential already

    Question: why are both priced the same? Why is the award winning tosai with great pattern not kept by breeder for another year to be sold for at least 600k? Why is some simple pattern tosai being sold by the breeder/dealer for same price as well?



    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-05-06 01:49:49 am
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Would love to hear the answers from Bro HDCu...........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,112


    300k yen tosai is considered very high quality koi with most famous breeders in Japan and can even be put in the mudpond already to be raised as nisai however these prices are not yet the top ten ranked tosai yet.

    Now if the breeder thinks a koi has good skin, good girthy body and great pattern and a female enough for it to win easily in a koi show in smaller size then 300k is justifiable.

    If the breeder thinks a female tosai has good skin, good body conformation for its size based on his knowledge on his bloodline, with great potential to ba a big beautiful koi in the future even if it does not win a koi show then he will price it 300k as well.

    If we are talking about what would have a chance to win in a koi show then the first one has higher chance.
    If we are talking about whats the bigger chance one ends up with a high quality jumbo in the future then the latter is more appropriate choice.

    If you want both jumbo and big chance to win as GC then prepare to spend more.




  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109

    Actually 300k yen tosai range can be the following from the breeder based on what I have been offered:
    1. Simple non appealing pattern with good skin with long body and long big head and thick ozutzu
    2. Award winning pattern like above with good skin which is koi show potential already

    Question: why are both priced the same? Why is the award winning tosai with great pattern not kept by breeder for another year to be sold for at least 600k? Why is some simple pattern tosai being sold by the breeder/dealer for same price as well?





    Hi guys
    actually 300k Y for a taniguchi farm tosai considered as a tategoi bro, sorry forgot to mention that it was from taniguchi (2nd tier breeder) so it will be more expensive if it was from sakai, dainichi or momotaro
    if you guys cant get good prospect jumbo tosai fish with award winning patern @300k, i think you guys seriously need to find a better pricing dealer.

    this is my most expensive buy so far for koi, small sakai sanke nisai (48cm @dec 12) bought less than @125k Y already with dealers fee :)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sankesakai.jpg
    @48cm
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/sankesakai2_zpsd1b77fe3.jpg
    @56cm

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1_zps6e615fc4.jpg
    @65 or 67cm forgot

    this is last pic and video of her taken at last january she was sized around 68cm at her sansai age
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/12_zps1a3ace45.jpg


    dont know if it was right but lot of friend told me to getting this sanke to contest (after having minor surgery at tail area)...they said she has a show potential
    but i'am not the one who liked getting my fish to contest/show...always feel sorry for koi that has to go to koi show :)
    actually the kohaku are my first koi that i took to koi show...it was a keeping contest among my koikichi friends here that are judged by few of japanese breeder at last koi show, so while that fish is already there why not? :)

    about tail tube...just one in many other factor for having jumbo koi
    chagoi with small tail tube bought at ake nisai @november 2013 61cm (born around febuary 2012 local breed)
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/chagoi61cm_zps78c174ad.jpg
    1 months later in my pond
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/chagoi1_zps928c19dc.jpg

    early march at her early sansai year 70cm

    still small tube right?..growth are okay i think

    anyway...i dont see any problem from growing both of our kohaku to jumbo size
    (if it was female of course...still dont know sex of my kohaku)
    maybe my eyes missed it...
    care to give explanation for us what makes both of our kohaku cant grow jumbo?
    because actually i've heard from the previous owner of that kohaku; paul of koibito japan over dinner last week...that he said he bought that kohaku not only for its contest material but also its growth potential :)

    cheers
    han
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-06 03:00:47 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Nice Sanke Han......... (Y) Hope the already nice Sumi to be lacquer Black.......
    For a minute there, I thought this is a Doitsu Sanke......... I cant really see the scales.
    A truly remarkable Sanke.............
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-06 03:53:34 pm
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,250
    With regards to Bro @Kekwa original question, just to share a photo of my 3 koi fries at 1 month old, all of which were born on the same day from the same parents. As you can see the size difference is really significant even at this early age.

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/15654/koi fries.jpg
    Attachments
    koi fries.jpg 139K
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    With regards to Bro @Kekwa original question, just to share a photo of my 3 koi fries at 1 month old, all of which were born on the same day from the same parents. As you can see the size difference is really significant even at this early age.

    koianswers.com/discussion/download/15654/koi fries.jpg


    hi bro nivek
    yeah actually there will be a canibalism among them if the size has significant difference so you dont see the smaller ones.
    :)

    Nice Sanke Han......... (Y) Hope the already nice Sumi to be lacquer Black.......
    For a minute there, I thought this is a Doitsu Sanke......... I cant really see the scales.
    A truly remarkable Sanke.............


    thx bro Shukri

    just yesterday sold all my bigger fish (more than 60cm) for renovation purpose
    and my benigoi surprise me...she is 80cm while still in sansai age :)
    this is my first 80cm koi @my 15T pond (include filtration) she was kept more than a year in my pond
    also proving to 1 of my senior it was wrong that you cant grow 80cm fish in small pond :D
    anyway too bad i dont have pic of her in measure tank when she was taken out from pond...but she cant have a straight posture in her 80cm box so i'm guessing shes already 80cm

    this is her last video (showa was 60cm, kohaku around 70cm maybe)



    cheers
    han
    Post edited by frostbitez at 2014-05-07 08:51:30 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    hi guys
    yesterday i'm starting to renovating my pond so while moving out the fishes i took some pics of my 2 tosai
    this are development of this tosais

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/ochibatani21cm_zpsc0aade98.jpg
    21cm @early feb
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hh_zps4c365a05.jpg
    40-41cm @may

    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/hiutsuri16cmsakazume_zps44ee2b8b.jpg
    16cm @end dec
    http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x281/hanjayasalim/1finalss_zpse1bf1916.jpg
    43cm @may

    growth are not special but now they are count as jumbo tosai with very cheap price :-D
    han
  • KekwaKekwa May 2014
    Posts: 261
    Wow bro han, your grooming skills solid!
    Love your ginrin hi utsuri growth... (Y)
  • gerrygerry May 2014
    Posts: 769
    =P~ =D>
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Not bad Bro Han.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Hi Bros,

    It's been 1 year and I have latest updates to share on my own kohaku tosai grow-out :)

    A bit of history first... back in Apr'14, four kohaku tosai (8 - 10 months old) went into my pond when they were around 30cm - 32cm. Three of the bigger ones were from a well-known breeder and supposedly jumbo tosai batch. The dealer then recommended a fourth tosai from another pond by his regular breeder. It was the smallest at 30cm and also has pale yellow beni, but I liked the kucibeni pattern and overall package.

    I couldn't believe when I was quoted the kuchibeni's price, which was as much as all the other three "jumbo tosai" in total... my dealer just said he's not sure yet how the jumbo tosai batch will develop, so he's already discounting on them! banghead

    Side-by-side pic of the kuchibeni tosai (30cm) and one of the bigger "jumbo tosai" (32cm) below:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17515/1.jpg

    At 12 months old, you can see the jumbo tosai is still slightly ahead in growth. Just scroll to video mid-point, when both surface to feed:






    Then, something magical happened in the next 12 months :) At 24 months old, the biggest jumbo tosai is now 58cm, but the kuchibeni had grown to 70cm! I just bowled them yesterday and was really surprised at the actual size. Here's the "after" side-by-side pic:

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17514/2.jpg




    It's probably not clear from the picture/video, but other than size, the difference in skin quality is also visibily obvious now. They were grown from around the same size/age, fed the same food and subjected to the same environment.

    For me, this is one of the most personal and enjoyable lesson I had in my years of keeping koi... genetics alone make a BIG difference! A trusted and knowledgeable dealer also helps if you are serious about your koi :D

    Happy koi keeping!
    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-05 02:41:15 pm
  • ikankoikauikankoikau June 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Very good and surprising outcome bro (Y)
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Thanks a lot, Bro Borman :)
    Yes, it was a really exceptional koi which surprised everyone.

    I hope Bros will enjoy this solo video as much as I did:




    Post edited by wklim at 2015-06-07 01:44:50 am
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,246
    Bro WKLim,

    Well done keeping them from 30 to 70cm in 2 yrs ? ( from April 2014 or was it 2013?)
    Very nice body and hump on the kuchibeni. Still a long way to go so don't give up on the other 3" jumbo" tosai :-)) more surprises to come ? Are they from Hoshikin ? male/female ?

    ts
  • wklimwklim June 2015
    Posts: 97
    Thank you, Bro TS! The kuchibeni was from 2013 breeding season, but I only got her from my dealer in Apr'14 @ 30cm.

    Yup, no intention to give up the other 3 kohaku (all females) from Igarashi. They are now 55cm - 58cm and still in good shape with nice red beni contrasting against good white ;) I'm keen to observe the development over the years.
  • July_88July_88 June 2015
    Posts: 2
    wow... thats a surprise man. I think a good dealer really is important

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