Pepper's New Koi Pond Advice
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Everyone,

    I am about to embark on building my 1st Koi pond. I have been surfing for information and finally found this site.

    My understanding is that it is very important to build pond correctly from the outset and making sure the fundamentals are all in order, otherwise it will be months or years of headache, with sick or dead kois...

    Hopefully you will be able to help me out.

    Have a few starting questions:

    - In your experience, is there any great difference between using a contractor that does mainly swimming pools and some koi ponds versus a contractor specialises in selling koi that builds only koi ponds ?

    - If I choose the swimming pool specialist because he is half the price of the koi specialist, will I be able to get enough information, tips and advice here in this forum to make sure he is doing it right? Eg size of filter chambers, piping, filter media etc

    Thanks
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-13 05:47:03 pm
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Welcome to the Forum Pepper. Share with us the layout plan, and I am sure that many will assist you with what to have and what not to have.

    There are people here who uses the Traditional filtration type system and the Bead filtration. I am sure that you will benefit from the advices given.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Shukri,

    Thanks for the warm welcome.

    Attached is the schematic for the Koi Pond.

    Some explanations.

    - Location of Koi Pond in Blue cannot really be changed. Some minor adjustments to dimensions may be possible.
    - Depth is 1m
    - 2 stone stepping "bridges" are required, with probably foundation supports in the pond for at least one bridge.

    - have included 3 possible filter pump positions - labelled in order of my preference

    1. Preferred
    - preferred because it will be at the side of the house
    - away from human traffic, so probably less noisy and smelly?
    Worries
    - that the pump is at the narrowest end of the pond and furthest away from the centre of the pond? should this be a concern?

    2. then location of Pump 2

    3. then location of Pump 3 - front of the house

    The first most important question for me at the moment is the location of the Filter Pump. The location has not been fixed yet and is open to discussion.

    Any advice, tips, suggestions, comments on Filter Pump location will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/15730/IMG_20140521_000233.jpg
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Welcome to the forum pepper. A few concerns. The gap between the steps and the edge of the pond is really narrow and might pose a problem for big kois when swimming past. Where are the bottom drains and surface skimmers located?
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Nivek

    Thanks.

    Only jpg attached files will appear?
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Yes jpg will work.
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Nivek,

    Thanks for your comments.

    I believe under the step there will be a support. How large or what diameter the support is going to be can probably be altered to a certain extent.

    What is the minimum diameter I should be looking at for big kois to swim through? I can probably try to ensure that this gap is catered for.

    I have not selected my contractor at this point in time yet. Hence no "shop drawings" for the bottom drains and surface skimmers are available for now. Rest assured, once they are out, I will put it up for critic.

    I am in a little bit of a dilemma at the moment trying to decide on which contractor to choose. But will probably go with the cheaper one, non koi specialist, as the savings can be used to buy lots of koi, koi food, filter media and pay for years of maintenance....

    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-21 07:27:45 am
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Penny wise pound foolish decision bro pepper. Koi pond shd cost more than koi to start with. Without a good pond, koi cannot realise their potential. Every pond is different and every hobbyist is different too. This means u need to know yourself and know what pond will suit your routine.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau May 2014
    Posts: 1,053
    Bro pepper,

    My advice for you is to carefully plan the pond that you are planning to build. Pond layout is thing but the most important thing is the heart of the pond which is the filtration system. Your water quality and condition of the kois will depend a lot on your pond system. Maintenance will going to be another main issue.

    Cheap will never be a good solution. Go for the koi pond specialist or ask the koi dealers, imho. We have heard so much from hobbyist with improper pond. Take more time on planning and search around for solution.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Hi Pepper,
    Is there a particular reason that the pond needs to be in the shape like in the plan? Due to the shape (and if you still want to maintain the shape), you have to carefully placed the bottom drains and need strategic surface skimmers' placement. Skimmers should be of the swivel type (this is very important!). You need to consider this........... A fix skimmer that cant be moved side to side, is a huge mistake in any pond.

    Accessibility and ease of maintenance should be two of the objectives when designing and building a pond........... Trust me on this!!!

    Water proofing of the pond is also a serious thing. You wouldnt want a leaking pond after a year of so, which will be a huge headache. Consider to apply a few layers. My pond is done with 6 layers............ maybe an over do thing, but stood the test of time for all these years.

    The design of the mechanical and biological chambers is very important........

    Make sure you have enough power points ie the 3 pin plugs. My almost 30 ton pond has 20 power point plugs (even though I have not utilized all of them). You have to plan for the future as well. You will never know that you might need extra air pumps, or water pumps, or Oxygen Concentrators, or Chillers, Bakki Showers etc in the future. No harm to cater for buffers in your considerations and design.......

    Plan to shade your pond.......

    Consider the strategic placement of the water over flow outlet.........

    How deep is the pond?

    If you have space, probably you should consider a Vortex! Kind of get rid the solid wastes before hitting the mechanical filtration.......

    And my final advice............. and I can never say this ENOUGH!!! DO IT CORECT THE FIRST TIME................ Better to spend a bit more up front then spending money over and over again to correct the mistakes done up front...........

    Hope this helps........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-21 08:04:15 am
  • brianlawbrianlaw May 2014
    Posts: 107
    Agreed with all the bros' comments here. Just a word of caution, I ended up modified my pond 2 times just to get it suitable for kois. Still not perfect and tempted to redo it but too many restrictions. I would strongly suggest you get professional help/advice and get it right the 1st time - if not, you will probably spend some more later to modify the pond. Speaking from experience.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Brian,
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881

    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    Have not seen the video before - very very honest and useful video ! A lot for all of us to learn. Thank's for the opportunity !

    Specific to the pond design, my suggestion is that because Koi make very heavy demands on the filters and the water, the most efficient pond designs will have the minimum of sloped / gradual corners, a water depth of at least 4 feet, and where the water turnover is pegged to the level of stocking ( plus a bit of to buffer for emergencies ). The idea being to sustain a good flow of water to circulate the water between pond and filter so that there are no dead spots, and where the flow rate is adequate.

    Forgive me, but your current design looks more ornamental than being a design for good Koi keeping. Can it work ? Your design makes things difficult, but I suppose you can overcome most of the problems with good use of underground piping, multiple pick up points, multiple pumps, as well as multiple water return points ? This will be complex and unless you decide to spend a fair amount of money on design, construction and maintenance, you could have an unfortunate situation of a disaster waiting to happen.

    If you decide to persist with this kind of a layout, my humble view is that you definitely need an expert to be in from the word GO.

    This would mean either a Koi specialist doing the whole thing, or, a Koi specialist willing to plan, supervise construction with an eagle eye, and to check your cheaper alternative every few days. Try to do a cost comparison, and recognize that the cost implications will be largely determined by the shape of your pond.

    If it is only for ornamental purposes, there are also a wide variety of other fish to consider - just make sure that they do not impose too much on your water conditions. :)
    Mike Lee
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Pepper,
    I know that you are overswamped with a lot of comments from the Hobbyists here. We have done it, seen it, and many of us had paid the price until today........... because we didnt do it right the first time........ Let our experience be your learning curve, so that you can save that money in the future............ so that you can buy better kois! :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
    Post edited by Shukri at 2014-05-21 01:47:35 pm
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Wow... thanks everyone for all your helpful comments and wise words of advice..

    Thank you James, ikankoikau, Brian, Shukri & Mike

    I have come to the right forum!

    Watched the Video over lunch today - Thanks Shukri
    - Best advice from the whole video - " learn to build the Koi Pond yourself then find the contractor!"
    - realised that you can just read the article at the Sacramento koi website, which is also very informative,
    - http://sacramentokoi.com/articles/

    Best advice from the whole video - " learn to build the Koi Pond yourself then find the contractor!"

    Perhaps some more background will be helpful.

    Layout & design is done by the architect. Aesthetically looks great. Yes Mfwlee, it could have been just an ornamental reflective pond. But we decided that we would eventually put in some fish in the pond for the kids. Hence we will need some sort filter system. Somehow along the way, we decided Koi would be great. Then we realised that building a Koi Pond and keeping Koi is like a whole science in itself.. And so I ended up here in this forum...

    I understand a narrow-ish T-shaped pond is not ideal for the Koi, but that's what I have to work with. I am thinking that a larger space in total is better for the Koi to swim around than a smaller (1.5m x 3.5m) rectangle shaped pond.. ?

    I already have a Builder that will do the excavation, structural works and waterproofing of the pond surfaces.

    So the Pond contractor only has to design, supply and install the piping, water pump and filter system.

    So this is what I have been offered more or less similar from the different quotations.

    Pumps
    - 2 submersible pumps - 1.1 to 1.5 kW - are these enough?
    - 6 Venturi Air jets - are these enough?

    Bio Filter system
    - 4 to 5 chamber system - dimensions not available yet - but suppose to cater to 33% of the pond volume
    - includes Pond Skimmer - Thanks Shukri - will enquire about movable surface skimmers
    - includes Bio Mat, Coral Chips and UV Filter
    - will research more about this Vortex filter
    - I believe this is probably the most crucial component of the whole pond - needs to be efficient and east to maintain

    Bottom Drain
    - Grating - 3 to 4 pieces - Are these enough?
    - got some advice to have the bottom edges
    - form the above video - bottom contouring to have a self cleaning bottom sounds very useful

    Pipes
    - diameter not specified yet but one contractor gave 100mm as the pipe diameter - too small? Is there a standard diameter?

    Control Panel
    - DB box, transformers, Timer Switch
    - Thanks Shukri - will take note to have more power points.

    Pond Lights
    - Some quoted for LED lights - Some advised against - says they blind the koi? Any comments?
    - Sacremento koi - recommend to have a lot

    Depth is 1m

    Thanks
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Pepper,
    Where are you from?

    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    I would suggest that you take the steps one at a time.

    Ask the designer to illustrate to you how the current flows from pond, to filter/s, and then back to pond, without any dead spots. Satisfy yourself on this first, then the rest of the details will fall in place because they all support the flow.

    If you get the flow wrong, or, less than optimal, you are likely to wind up having to throw a lot of money at the problem later.
    Mike Lee
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Where is Brother Harry Luhur?
    Our pond builder hobbyist from Indonesia..........
    Have not heard from him in a while.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Pepper, I don't think is a good idea to have 2 builders to a koi pond. Either the building will not understand what the pond specialist wants to achieve or vice versa. All of this ends up only 1 way...
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    Thanks Mike for the Flow drawing tip.

    James, some things are not really in my control. The Builder is the Main Contractor who is overall in charge. The Pond specialist is separately engaged and has to work under the Main Contractor who will cover all the warranties. For my sake, I hope they will work well together.

    Now I am trying to learn the Basics of how to Build Your own Pond, here's a useful site that I have found.

    - http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?92002-Pond-and-construction-forum-101

    Also managed to borrow this book from the local library

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Book-Koi-Complete/dp/0793806232/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400690438&sr=8-1&keywords=essential+book+of+koi

    - the 1st section about pond building is mind boggling

    Will pop back on this forum once I have selected my contractor and have some shop drawings for discussion.


  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Managing this way is no different from building a landscape pond. It will take too long for a builder to understand the complexity of a koi pond and too difficult for a pond designer to educate him enough in 1 pond's job. I have seen many of this happening and usually ends up with either pond being redone or the poor owner giving up the hobby. This is the lesson many have learnt here too. Sadly the lesson continues for many.

    A good koi pond is not jus how good the filter and systems are. Is how it is suited to how you run your maintenance. For now u might think this is gibberish, but come to washing time u will realise what I am saying. And then it will be too late... :-))

    But my advise may be biased since I have a division that designs and builds ponds in extension to my interior design team.
  • idrisidris May 2014
    Posts: 1,182
    multiple tasking team...less cost..good thinking james...hehe
  • pepperpepper May 2014
    Posts: 53
    I am from Singapore

    Still going through the forum pages and came across Raistlin's post on how he built his new pond.

    Are there any good Koi Pond Builders in Singapore that you would recommend or would trust if you had to "redo" your own pond again?

    Thanks
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-06-06 10:19:55 am
  • frostbitezfrostbitez May 2014
    Posts: 109
    labours are cheap here in indonesia
    my pond construction cost me arround 1000U$ for 15ton pond (for construction only)
    and cost me more than 5000U$ for filtration :D
    han
  • harryyewharryyew May 2014
    Posts: 396
    bro pepper

    so.... who is going to design the hydraulics engineering and sewerage treatment needs of the koi pond based on the Architect's design?


    cheers
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi bro harryyew,

    Thank you for taking an interest in my pond. I have read many of your previous posts which are amazingly detailed and informative.

    I hope you will be one of the Sifus from this forum that will be helping me critic my Pond.

    Sorry for the long absence. After much searching and negotiating, I have finally found someone to build my pond at my budget. More importantly, he is willing to take pointers from me via this forum to make the pond as good as it can be, given the limitations.

    Here are the 1st few drawings.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16015/pond.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16016/pond%20chamber.jpg

    I hope the Sifus here will be able to give their comments.

    Thanks
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-02 05:53:57 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    Good that you are diligent in ensuring the 1st pond you build is ideal. Many new koi-keepers engage "koi pond specialists" that give them much headache.

    For example:
    http://www.themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2700.

    A good pond build can be generally divided to 2 parts:
    1) The Pond
    2) The filter

    A good pond will ensure all debris are sucked from the bottom efficiently, and that leaves are taken out by the skimmer quickly. Therefore, it will require optimally placed bottom drains, skimmers, and pond returns. Depending on the philosophy behind the actual pond, features can be built in to aid the bottom drain-sloping pond floor, aerated bottom drain.

    The filter is where there's much debate due to the large number of options and designs. The owner needs to understand the maintenance requirements and shortcomings of each filter design. It's the aim of filters to not only trap dirt, and provide biofiltration, but also to be able to be cleaned easily without killing much good bacteria.

    Pepper, if you are keen on your current filter design, do know that the "bricks" will trap dirt. If you must use the up/down flow, try to suspend the filter media. Also try to have sloping filter chambers to they can be washed easily. Then factor in the amount of time and water loss for your filter cleaning and maintenance.

    If it's up to me, I'll consider this:
    http://www.ericpondfilters.com/2011-koi-pond-from-start-to-finish/

  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi TomyC,

    Thanks for your comments.

    I intend to slope the base of the main koi pond to the bottom drains. The filter chambers should be sloped too? What gradient?

    Any ERIC pond filter distributor/dealer in Singapore or Malaysia?

    This is going to be a 12 month long project.

    Excavation and laying of the base/bottom slab are suppose to start in 2 weeks and scheduled to be completed by end July.

    I need help with the basic structure urgently.

    Questions

    Pond

    1. Are 4 bottom drains enough?
    2. Is a 3inch or 75mm diameter drain pipe good enough?
    3. There is usually a gradient for the base of the pond - does any one know the ideal or usual angle
    4. Any comments about the position of the bottom drains?
    5. Where should surface skimmers go? The contractor says that surface skimmers might "suck" in the koi and kill them? I am a bit skeptical. Any comments anyone?


    Filter

    1. Is a 5 chamber system enough?
    2. Any advise on size and depth of each chamber?
    - if I am not wrong the whole 5 chamber system is 3m by 1m

    Filter and pump components I still have some time to figure out.

    Thanks
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-04 11:08:37 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    If you want an ERIC system, you will have to order it from the UK. The guys are very helpful with pond builds and can advice you professionally on what's required.

    Else, there's also DIY version, or filter designs that make use of the concepts of the ERIC system-1)horizontal flow, 2)brush box, 3)easy clean.
    For example, HDCU has incorporated the concepts into his pond: http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/1534/hdcu-new-pond-build/p1

    You can technically have the filter chamber+ pump anywhere you like. It will only mean the additional length of the pipes and bends, which will lead to additional head loss/flow rate of the water pump, which isn't a huge issue.

    The pond shape and the steps is making the pond design challenging. How big is the surface area of the "pillar" in the pond? That will influence the bottom drain and pond return placement.

    The bigger the bottom drain pipes, the bigger the suction, and of course the cost. 4" D. for seriousness.

    If your pond is located near tress, you will get leaves. If you use bottom drains with grating, leaves will choke them. Meaning you will need to clear them manually. Tedious. There are covered bottom drains that will allow leaves through, but it will mean you will need to clean the filter. Which then means the filter design needs to suit the purpose.

    Pond building and koi keeping is a very complex matter.

    To answer your more urgent question first:
    The proper way to prepare the pond base, is to have a flat concrete base first. Then the drain pipes and bottom drain on top of the concrete base, then concrete to cover the drain pipes. http://themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?p=36884#p36884
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi TommyC,

    Actually the ERIC filtration system can be ordered and shipped from the Philippines where it is assembled as per specification. All the components are imported including the Emats. Several installations here have been made to replace existing filter setups as well as new set ups. I have come to notice the following employing the ERIC system.
    1. It is very easy to clean and really traps most waste.
    2. ERIC filtration should be looked as a filtration system instead of just a filter. As such proper recommended position of BD, size of pipe, flowrate, and maintenance is all equally important.
    3. Eric filter coupled with a bakki shower produces the best result IMO.
    4. Interestingly, several new small ponds was setup by the dealer with eric filtration. New jumbo tosais were then added for quarantine in the overstocked new pond.. Recommended salt levels were placed as well as aeration in the pond. Daily flushing was performed as well as light feeding. While there was high ammonia and high nitrite level at start I observed no new pond syndrome. The new koi were never stressed and were swimming and feeding normally. There were no ammonia burns or beni collapse as well. I have no explanation for this.


  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi TommyC,

    Actually, I am perplexed with this NPS. In Japan, when breeders bring in their numerous koi stock to indoor pond that is brand new, they just turn on the aeration in the filter and in the pond very strongly. Some dont even bother to check ammonia and nitrite levels intead they rely on the condition of the koi.

    Basically, I suspect the following common factor:
    1. Heavy aeration in both filter and pond helps a lot.
    2. STRONG movement of water
    3. Immediate colonization of adequate filter media of good bacteria
    4. 0.3% salt levels
    5. lower levels of ph
    6. Solid waste are removed daily
    7. Comfortable temperature for the koi and for the right bacteria to populate

    In all factors there will be less stress to the koi.

    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-05 03:07:34 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    Yep. I'm sure a constant water trickle helps a lot too.
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Thank HDCu.

    Do you have the ERIC dealer contact in Philippines? And more importantly do you know how much it costs to ship to Singapore?

    Thanks

    10 Jul 2014
    Found out the contact in Philippines

    Russel Tantuco
    from
    Koi Hob

    http://www.ericpondfilters.com/koi-hob-south-east-asia/

    costs, including shipping to Singapore,

    - USD $1,200 for a Eric 1
    - USD $1,650 for a Eric 2

    And apparently I will need 2 units of Eric 1 and 1 unit of Eric 2, hmmmmm.



    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-10 02:31:46 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro pepper

    Your current pond design provisions under consideration contain weaknesses.

    They are as follows:

    1) The two number of bottom drains positioned spanning from 9 o’clock to the 3 o’clock position not good. Currently you will have more water return at the 12 o’clock area.

    2) Equally distribute these two bottom drains within the 5.55 stretch better. Remove the stumps as it will interfere with the water mechanic and will affect the koi movement through it. I cannot see any additional aesthetic value it can provides you over the proposed step design allowed at the 6 o’clock position.

    3) Bottom drain at 3 o’clock position need to find it shortest route back to the filtration chamber. You want to minimize head loss.

    4) Bottom drains should preferably be constructed below the pond structural slab level. These bottoms drain no need to cast into the slab.

    5) Your water returns to the pond not good. Place them in opposing direction with respect to each bottom drain area to create a vortex flow into the bottom drain. For example return at 6 o’clock position is basically short-circuiting the return. Same to the return near the stumps. Dead area at 12 o’clock area.

    6) You have planters planned near the pond. Why not provide one of the water returns over it? You can use the plants to control your nitrate and phosphate level in the pond.

    7) You have 6 nos of 50mm dia pipe returns? Imagine a 50mm dia outlet discharging its flows into an outlet 3 times it size. Outlets further away from the pump will be like urinating at its outlets and does not provide the jetting feature in the water body. Have the left and right water return circuits to have equal number of outlets. You can use valves to regulate the outlet flows. The piping size should be reducing, as it gets further away from the pump outlet. Remember the continuity equation Q=VA, where Q = discharge, V= velocity of the water, A= the cross sectional area of the pipe. Consult your engineer for assistance on this. Have some of the outlets near the bottom and some at half the pond depth.

    8) You don’t have a settlement chamber (1st chamber) to settle the fish waste. You need to have a settling chamber to remove as much solid waste as possible. Either have brushes or use tube settlers to assist the waste settling. Only super fines will flow to the subsequent chambers.

    9) If you desire for crystal clear water…. You need to consider a sand filter in one of your water circuit return outlet.

    10) The hydraulic profile provided in your cross section is wrong. The 1st chamber water level will be lower than the main pond water level. The 3rd chamber water level cannot be higher than the preceding chamber.

    11) You are designing for a 17 ton fish pond. You need to decide on the pond turnover per hour you want. Maybe you consider for one turnover every 1.5hr. You will then need less powerful pumps.

    12) I notice you have a dedicated pump for water spouts. May I know where are you spouting to specifically?

    13) Do you want to provide an ejector to introduce air into your pond or you intent to have air supply at the filtration chambers only? I proposed that you provide an ejector.

    14) From your cross section diagram, I notice you will be providing a 32A/3PH/415V power supply. Good news…. Hehehe….. power provision more than adequate…… you are providing a total of 92A. Are you planning for chiller to cool the water?

    15) The DB control panel cannot be positioned there for safety reason. Have it somewhere else. Now…. Your electrical supply should be tapped parallel from your house electricity supply. Remember you need to have two isolating switches (best to have switchfuse), one at the supply end and one at the receiving end for safety reason. I think for time being I will not go into this.

    16) The LED lights placement not good. What you will be experiencing is diffraction of lights at the water surface and it will distract your view. In addition, all the fines in the water body will be prominently display in the lights. The lights need to be position such that the angle of beam is below the water surface. Then you can view your koi in good lights.

    17) The LED light power, i.e. 3W too small bro… use min 6W LED type.


    Questions

    Pond

    1. Are 4 bottom drains enough?
    Ans: Yes

    2. Is a 3inch or 75mm diameter drain pipe good enough?
    Ans= Border line case if 75mm but 100mm diameter best.

    3. There is usually a gradient for the base of the pond - does any one know the ideal or usual angle
    Ans= 5% gradient enough. Don't expect the waste to gravitate to the bottom drain. They are too light to behave that way.

    4. Any comments about the position of the bottom drains?
    Ans= See above.

    5. Where should surface skimmers go? The contractor says that surface skimmers might "suck" in the koi and kill them? I am a bit skeptical. Any comments anyone?
    Ans= You can have grating over it if koi is small. Koi big no way. Place it at the 9 o'clock area should be fine.


    Filter

    1. Is a 5 chamber system enough?
    Ans= Yes, chamber size must be big enough to accommodate the filter media, brushes and pumps.

    2. Any advise on size and depth of each chamber?
    Ans= 1st chamber=1.2m x 1m (bigger lagi best), 2nd chamber=1m x 1m, 3rd chamber= 1m x 1m, 4th chamber (pump) 1m x 1m, dry chamber, 1m x 1m or at least someone can get down to service when required.

    - if I am not wrong the whole 5 chamber system is 3m by 1m
    Ans= Not big enough.

    Before I comment further….. May I know….. how many koi you intent to introduce?


    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    From my experience....... you basically need to provide 1.5m2 to 2m2 water surface area per koi to appreciate its beauty........ especially when they are jumbo size.

    You have a pond surface area of approximately 15m2.

    Cheers :)
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-07 11:04:49 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    bro pepper

    The pond towards the 6 o'clock area(0.98m) too narrow for koi to find joy in this area.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Morning bro pepper

    From the cross section view of your pond. You are using ball valves to isolate the pumps from its piping works. It is possible but you would be better off if you use union joint before the ball valves.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16036/images.jpeg

    The other thing I notice your water return supply piping works to the pond go up and down along the routes. Don't do that..... you are introducing unnecessary head loss.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    At the last chamber (dry chamber)...... you are planning to use ball valves to control your discharge to nearest open drain. This is only possible if your nearest drain invert level is below your dry sump level....

    If you want to use ball valves for this purposes....then use the Stainless steel 3 piece type of ball valve as it is very durable and can be replaced easily.

    hmm..... you are also using a common bottom pipe for discharging wastes from all your chambers. Not good idea as you cannot discharge the chamber individually at will.

    Pump chamber will contain very very little waste.

    1st chamber is where the waste will accumulate (settled). This is the chamber you will need frequent cleaning.

    Cheers
    Post edited by harryyew at 2014-07-12 12:24:25 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    You have planned for a wall mounted UV light Steriliser at the pump chamber. Please make sure the type of UV light steriliser you intent to place there is waterproofed type.

    For this type of steriliser to be effective.... the water is recommended to be pre-filtered before entry else once the the glass tube is dirty...... finish story...

    May I know what pass thru capacity and UV strength you have planned?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    bro pepper .... overflow pipe is planned at the main pond.

    You don't want the main pond water to overflow especially when the pond bottom drains are choked for whatever reason. Your pump chamber level cannot go higher than the main pond water level.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    bro pepper.......

    Are you planning to have your air supply lines embed into the pond wall?

    Where are you planning to house your air pumps?

    cheers
  • pohbengpohbeng July 2014
    Posts: 114
    Hi....

    just saw this post.

    Not sure who you have appointed and who are the pond builder you have speak to.
    The koi farms building the pond in Spore shouldn't be too much price different from many contractors.

    Your filter do not have a dry chamber which is essential for maintenance.
    Your back flow pipe should not be 1, but 1 in each chamber separately.

    design may not have sufficient filtration. 3 chamber, I don't think is enough for your pond size.


  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Sifu harryyew,

    wow...wow...wow... Thanks for taking the time to look at my system, and the time to type your comments.

    Took me a few days to digest your comments and to try and incorporate your suggestions.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16048/Pond%20Layout%202014%2001%2010.jpg

    So I have redrawn the placement of the Bottom drains and the Return Air Jets.
    - Is this better? And according to your intention?

    I read somewhere that it is good to have a swivel nozzle for the Air jets - this is so that if ever I need to redirect the flow. I have some flexibility.
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-11 09:39:01 am
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16049/Pond%20Chamber%20Revised%202014%2007%2010.jpeg

    For the Filter Chambers, is the attached a better size distribution?

    Is the hydraulic profile better now?

    What should the depth of each filter chamber be?
    - TomyC Suggested sloping bottom for easier cleaning
    - are you suggesting 1 individual separate pipe from each chamber to open drain

    Filter media specified in my quotation is Bio Mat & Choral Chips. Which Chambers do these go to?

    If I want a Sand Filter ? Where does the sand filter go?

    Am I supposed to have another extra chamber for settlement?

    Only 1 surface skimmer required? Or more is better? Best position/s?

    Contractor is supplying a 18 w aqua UV light.
    - Is this any good?
    - will need to check the pass thru capacity and where they intend put it

    Thanks

    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-10 11:02:45 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    As stated before, this was meant to be a water feature / landscape pond. So attached is what the water feature is suppose to look like.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16055/Water Feature 1.jpg

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16069/image.jpg

    I have taken as many measures as I possibly can to make the pond as Koi friendly as possible. This is in balance with the Architect's design intent.

    Eg make the supporting stumps
    - as round and smooth as possible so as not to injure the fish
    - as small as possible to hold the weight of the step so as to give the fish more room to swim

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16068/image.jpg

    Gradient to Bottom Drains shall be 5 degrees

    Corner edges of base of pond shall be curved like the inside of a football
    Post edited by pepper at 2014-07-10 06:10:28 pm
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    A pond is a pond, be it the reason for building it is to have a water feature. If the pond water is cloudy, or the fishes unhappy, it may stress the whole family.

    As such, the maintenance regime of your chosen filtration needs to be clear to you. You either DIY, or you spend about S$300-S$600 every month getting people to clean the filter for you. Or, once you neglect the maintenance, the pond becomes a liability.

    Therefore, I stress again, the importance of getting it right the first time.
    --
    It's good you have altered the pond design to suit the fish better.

    It's better if you give more details regarding this water feature of yours. Do know that if there's running water from the top, algae will grow to cover the water feature.

    I'm concerned about the tiny space on the right of the water feature. It may become a deadspot if there's no pond return pointing directly at it. Deadspot=debris collecting at the base of it.

    When you state "return air jets" in your previous pic, what do you mean by that? Pond return? Or Pond return with venturi inputting more air? You do want some areas with slow water flow and water clarity. If it's all blurry, you can't see the koi.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-10 05:22:17 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi TomyC,

    yes the monthly pond maintenance is an issue which I hope to reduce with the proper set up. Also to make the filter system as user friendly as possible so that I can DIY some of the time.

    Unfortunately, I can't give you much details about the water feature. What you see is in the pictures is about as much as as I know about the water feature. Its suppose to be a "Zen" like structure, water filling up in the small blue square. Then when it reaches the top, the water trickles down a small gradient at the sides. I think.... :/

    Yes I have managed to open the space on the right of Bottom Drain 3. Also managed to make the water feature and step less solid under water to give the fish more space.

    My understanding is that the water is returned from the filter system to the pond through the 6 air jets via the 2 pumps in chamber 4. Then there is another pump for water to the water feature.

    The Specs are as follows
    - Tursumi submersible pump - 1.5 kw / 1ph - 2 pumps - alternating day & night
    - Tursumi submersible pump - 0.4 kw / 1ph - 2 pumps - water spout
    - Hydro Venturi Air Jets - 6 numbers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro pepper

    Thank you for high high regards for me. I am not a sifu yet.... hehehe.... I will try my best to see how I can be of assistance to you and offer some points for your further consideration.....

    Before I go into the details to provide further feedback on your amended proposal, may I ask...... are the Tsurumi Submersible pumps you are referring to is actually model ref: 80PUW21.5?

    For a 1.5kW motor output Tsurumi pump capacity it has to run on 3 phase power supply and the outlet diameter is 80mm. Gosh!!! 1.5 kW pumps are big in size and they will consume a lot of electricity. I ask this is because it is relevant to the piping network routing and to estimate for you whether you really need this capacity or better off with Tsurumi Model 50PUA2.75S instead.

    Next is the Zen thing part of the feng sui you have consulted or landscape architect idea? If someone is promoting to you as part of a feature for this pond..... you better ask him/her to illustrate to you in more detail. For this type of ZEN structure to work to expectation( i.e. creating shimmering, laminar sheet water outfall it has to be done right.... else you still can a water outfall but it will be again like urinating at the last push....

    Hydro Venturi Air Jets are use in pool spa and swimming pool. Its outlet is usually come in 1/2" type leh..... You have any particular brand in mind?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro Pepper....

    You have not advise how many koi you intent to introduce. I ask this because it has relevant to chambers sizing and how eventually the filtration media can accommodate within it.

    Can I assume for time being based on the current pond configuration with all the elements you want to introduce...... say maybe 18 koi which will eventually grow to 75cm in size?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    ....alternatively we can size the filtration chambers to house the media and work backward on the fish waste your biological filtration system can process, then you will be able to calculate how koi, by weight, it can effectively support.

  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi harryyew,

    Thanks once again.

    The short answer to your question about how many Koi I intend to have is I don't know.

    The greedy bit in me says as many as I can have.

    Will take your magic number of 18 Koi for now.

    Water feature designed by Architect's team. No Feng Shui master involved. Yep that's my expectation - "creating shimmering, laminar sheet"

    The Pond contractor is unfortunately a Pool contractor 1st. So I guess much of the stuff will be from swimming pool stock, eg pond lights






    Here are the replies to the other points you made in the earlier posts.


    4) Bottom drains should preferably be constructed below the pond structural slab level. These bottoms drain no need to cast into the slab.

    - why? Aren't these pipes all placed within the concrete structure?


    6) You have planters planned near the pond. Why not provide one of the water returns over it? You can use the plants to control your nitrate and phosphate level in the pond.

    - the 2 small planters will house 1 small tree each
    - the long planter box supposed to have some shrubs

    - what do you mean? Are you suggesting a pipe into the plantar box, then let the water flow back into the pond?
    - I can consider putting a small pond in the long plantar box for shrubs with water plants if that helps


    13) Do you want to provide an ejector to introduce air into your pond or you intent to have air supply at the filtration chambers only? I proposed that you provide an ejector.

    - what is an ejector and where does it fit?

    Thanks



  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Hi Poh Beng,

    Thanks for your comments.

    I thought my chamber 5 where the electrical stuff is my dry chamber. Are you suggesting another extra chamber? How does that work and for what reason?

    How many chambers for filtration?

    Do you mean the back flow pipe from the each of the bottom drains in the main pond?

    Or the back flow pipe from each of the filter chambers to the open drain?

    Thanks





  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    Pepper,

    Poh Beng is concerned about the filtration capability of your filter design. The media (surface area), filter design (to influence the efficiency of the media), and size , greatly influence the filtration capacity.
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-11 12:50:21 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good Afternoon bro pepper

    Please allow me to provide a simple diagram to illustrate some of the features of the pond that IMHO is desirable to have.

    The 1st chamber invert level should be 50mm lower than the main pond. This will allow you to drain dry the main pond if required.

    Below proposal does not have the oyster or coral chamber. Some people say the coral is not good for the koi skin. This matter we can consult bro in this forum.


    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16072/Pond-diagram-1.jpg

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    The Pond contractor is unfortunately a Pool contractor 1st. So I guess much of the stuff will be from swimming pool stock, eg pond lights.

    hehehe..... No problem to use a pool contractor.... as long as he will listen to you on how the pond you want it to be constructed. If he is not a friendly party.... there will be cost variation you will need to manage. I built my pond with a general contractor using general workers only. You make sure they employ a competent plumber to do all your piping works.

    No need Swimming pool stock. Most of the stock required can be purchased from hardware stores. Pool lights embedding into the wall at that height is not suitable...... it will scatter the light at the water surface. Good for swimming pool effect but not for koi pond. We shall explore this later in greater detail....

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    4) Bottom drains should preferably be constructed below the pond structural slab level. These bottoms drain no need to cast into the slab.

    - why? Aren't these pipes all placed within the concrete structure?

    Answer
    So that your concrete slab will not be weaken and independent as it is constructed. You will have better control in the placement of the bottom drain pipework. Reinforcement installation will be easy and etc. You only need to provide trimmer bars at the pipe punching through the slab. T10 bars will do.

    What is the reinforcement arrangement that the designer or contractor has allow for the pond? T10@ 125mm both ways or otherwise?


    6) You have planters planned near the pond. Why not provide one of the water returns over it? You can use the plants to control your nitrate and phosphate level in the pond.

    - the 2 small planters will house 1 small tree each

    Answer= The leaves getting into the pond is a nightmare bro...... For ease of maintenance, please reconsider having the trees too near the pond.

    - the long planter box supposed to have some shrubs

    Answer = Good then....You can use the long planter box to incorporate shrubs that is suitable and to your liking to take up nitrate and phosphate before returning into the pond. Any specific type of shrubs you like?

    - what do you mean? Are you suggesting a pipe into the plantar box, then let the water flow back into the pond?

    Answer = Yes. but the planter box is without soil. The shrubs shall rest on a grating with pipework encircling it to provide nutrient for growth. The water then drip down and return to the pond.

    - I can consider putting a small pond in the long plantar box for shrubs with water plants if that helps

    Answer = Good idea and feature too. water plants will be ideal. It will soften your landscape too. I find your current landscaping is too hard. You need to have a more sensory aesthetic intervention to balance the building. The pond shall be the structural aesthetic to create the focal point of interest and the koi to provide the scalar aesthetic. This is the gist of architectural....... hehehe.....


    13) Do you want to provide an ejector to introduce air into your pond or you intent to have air supply at the filtration chambers only? I proposed that you provide an ejector.

    - what is an ejector and where does it fit?

    Answer = see below
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16074/Venturi Ejector.jpg

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16074/Venturi Ejector.jpg

    It is connected to the water return outlets. The bubbles are super fine and beauty. If air pump damage the Venturi ejector will be your backup for continuous supply of air into the pond. You want healthy and good growth on your koi.... make sure the supply of O2 is adequate and maintain at its saturation point.

    You can this gadget from Park Tank Asia Pte Ltd, 25 Defu Lane 9, Singapore 539266. Don't know whether Ms Shirley Wee still working there or not. If you do decide to incorporate this... my recommendation is you allowed for 2 numbers for your pond.

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    So I have redrawn the placement of the Bottom drains and the Return Air Jets.
    - Is this better? And according to your intention?

    Answer = wait, I will feedback on this. On a cursory it can be better. I will provide a simple diagram for you to consider.

    I read somewhere that it is good to have a swivel nozzle for the Air jets - this is so that if ever I need to redirect the flow. I have some flexibility.

    Answer = No need so complicated one. hehehe.....Basically you need to introduce current in the water body and we can achieve this in a mush simpler ways.

    Like all the bros have pointed out...... It is the maintenance features that it must have. Imagine you need to wash only say 2 or 3 times a year. Other times.... just sit nearby and relax and enjoy the company of the koi...... hehehe.....
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    For the 2nd and 3rd chambers..... you plan for a total of 12 to 13 pieces of 1m x 2m x 40mm think J-Mats cut into size to accommodate within the chamber size as plan to form individual modules light enough for handling purposes.

    I shall leave this exercise for you to explore...... so that you will feel proud and play a significant part in the pond construction and you will have many years of cerita-cerita to tell your family members and friends about it.....
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    As stated before, this was meant to be a water feature / landscape pond. So attached is what the water feature is suppose to look like.

    Answer
    hmm.... I am not sure this is a good idea. I like the ZEN feature but not how you are introducing and intervening it into the pond.

    The proposed structure is huge bro.... I know how it looks like and function. IMHO it will not fit in and blend well with the proposed koi pond. No problem having the outfall structure you have envisaged. Nice to have feature but not by introducing a BIG elephant into the centre focus of the koi pond. The amount of algae that will grow on its surface will be a nightmare and a perpetual event for you to clean on a bi-weekly basis.

    Please reconsider the ZEN feature not to sit directly in the pond. A balance landscaping is what you need to direct the team to help you to explore. Turn all these forseeable undesirable features into advantages are to goal you should motivate the team toward.

    Now.... in order to encourage the koi to move from one point to another..... you need to provide them with a good line of sight for them to swim around.

    The green portion is really too narrow. I think at least 1.2m width.... so that it does not looks like a corridor. Hopefully the small koi will find this area a joy to swim to.

    BTW where is "North" with respect to your diagram? Is your main living area at 9 o'clock position?

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro pepper

    A proposal for your consideration.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16076/BD-Diagram.jpg
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    For the Filter Chambers, is the attached a better size distribution?

    Is the hydraulic profile better now?

    Answer= Please see my 1st diagram for the estimated draw down.

    What should the depth of each filter chamber be?

    Answer= 1.35m with reference to the main pond water level of 1.3m. Anything deeper than 1.35m can also.

    - TomyC Suggested sloping bottom for easier cleaning

    Answer = Yes. But 50mm higher than the rim of the bottom pipe outlet enough. The shit will not gravitate and roll down as much as we want to believe in Newton laws. hehehe...

    - are you suggesting 1 individual separate pipe from each chamber to open drain

    Answer = YES!!! very important feature to have. Die die also must have.

    Filter media specified in my quotation is Bio Mat & Choral Chips. Which Chambers do these go to?

    If I want a Sand Filter ? Where does the sand filter go?

    Am I supposed to have another extra chamber for settlement?

    Only 1 surface skimmer required? Or more is better? Best position/s?

    Answer= one is enough but if you anticipate surrounding to have leaves dropping in.... have 2 or 3 will definitely provide you with more control. Only the piping works will be a bit challenging to route back to the filtration chamber.

    Contractor is supplying a 18 w aqua UV light.
    - Is this any good?

    Answer = 100% NO GOOD. What type of models are available in Singapore? May be you should consider importing from oversea. I use Sterlight from Canada. I think it is a 40W UV light. So far I only need to change the light tube on a yearly basis and they have a counter to warn you to change. Love this gadget.

    - will need to check the pass thru capacity and where they intend put it

    Answer = The ideal pass thru rate will depend on the capacity of each model and the strength of the UV light. Since your pond is big.....You basically need to size the number required by deciding.... how many hours elapsed for a complete pond volume passing thru it. I suggest you consider for every 12hours....... 1 clean.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Where to place the sand filter?

    Answer = Some where along your 2nd water return circuit and where you can screen it off from sight.

    You Electrical DB, place it somewhere at the external building area and have it constructed to IP55 or higher enclosure loh. IP55 enclosure = Protection from water, up to water projected by a nozzle against enclosure from any direction....Consult Electrical engineer if this is alien to you.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    You need to have air pumps to supply air to the filtration chambers for the nitrifying bacteria. You can house it in your Electrical DB and have it route the air supply pipe work to the filtration chamber. This way...you have a clean landscape free from spider tubing all over it.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    On those valves that you will be using...... Use the "FULL" bored size valve.

    On the pumps..... my educate guess is that Tsurumi Model 50PUA2.75S will be adequate.

    You will need 4 units, two units on each circuit and with a changeover of say every 6 hours or 12 hours. In each of the outlet you will need to install a full bored " swing check valve" to prevent back flow into the inactive pumps and from back flow from the pond.

    Pump chamber increase it to slightly bigger to house all the pumps.

    I attached here a photo to illustrate the possible installation....

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16077/Pumps-resize.JPG

    Hope this is of help to you.......

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16078/Pipe-work-in-wall.jpg
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-11 06:16:30 pm
  • pepperpepper July 2014
    Posts: 53
    Comments from a kind bro via PM

    Hi.

    Few pointers for the design.

    1. too many bottom drain. this make the "suction" effect low.
    In general, 1 bottom drain, you need a 15ton/hr pump.

    2. bottom drain scatter all over the pond will create a lot of dead spot.
    suggest your bottom drain, use 2-3 at the T-juction area.
    bottom drain should be away from your feeding zone and viewing zone.
    food flow in, and you would prefer to see a nice flat surface to appreciate your koi.

    3. bottom drain piping to filter should minimise bend. putting at the T-junction area, you should be able to run a straight pipe. bend will trap dirt and grow mould/gel.

    4. Each filter chamber should have a individual discharge pipe. This allow you to wash 1 chamber and no need to dry off all water.

    5. Valve in dry chamber is difficult to operate, and valve tend to crack after a while like 1-2 years. Use piping block will be better. check out the filter system in Max koi farm, Diamond koi farm. all using this method.


    cheers!
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro TomyC

    Hmm...... How on earth can your oysters be in that state? Where did you place the oysters? Chamber before the pumps or at the 1st chamber?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good evening bro pepper

    Hehehe......

    Interesting pointers you have received......

    Let us wait and see what others concerns there may be......

    Cheers
  • TomyCTomyC July 2014
    Posts: 103
    Post edited by TomyC at 2014-07-11 10:16:41 pm
  • pohbengpohbeng July 2014
    Posts: 114
    Pepper....if you free this weekend, suggest you visit the koi farms, and ask them to show you how their filter chamber was constructed and how the maintenance was done.

    You will get a better idea.

  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning bro TomyC

    Thank you for the feedback. I use 2 bags of coral and 2 bags of oyster shell only. They are pretty clean.
    Does the Erik system have a coral chamber and after say 6 months does it exhibits a similar condition like you have shown?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning pepper

    It is a good idea to visit some existing systems. It gives you a better informed choice.

    If you are using the 1.5kW pump..... The electricity tarrif @ say 30 cents per kWh, you are looking at an electricity commitment bill of $350 per month. While this small amount is well within your affordability, IMHO it is good you revisit this subject matter as there are alternative to it.

    If you are using 3ph pump then make sure your electrical system have a phase detector to detect unbalanced phase power supply to prevent the pumps from damage.

    Cheers
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Hi Bro Harryyew,

    My two eric system have space to place coral or oyster but there is absolutely no need for it. Ph stays at 7.3ph 24 hours. Even if it rains a lot, it just drops very slight as I continue to flush and change water 5 % a day.

    I dont employ any UV nor any sand filter just two sets of eric systems coupled to a shower filter with lots of aeration and water has remained very clear without any green water episodes.
    TDS has constantly remained at 85ppm and a nitrate of just 10ppm with source water at 75ppm.

    Koi growth very good so far with no health problems with just little high quality food a day with several gosanke already nearing 80cm raised from jumbo tosais two years back. Skin and color of the koi look great according to the dealer.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 10:59:42 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    May I know your rational to use such fine mesh bag to house your oyster shells?

    How often do you have to clean?

    Do you know anyone in Singapore that has used the Eric system and is totally satisfied with it?

    Cheers.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Good morning bro HDCu

    It is nice of you to joint the discussions.....

    No coral or oyster shells employed and yet your pH is at a good value to have. That is great. May I know what is your water supply source pH?
    Hmmm... 5% water change daily may not be a good idea in Singapore. Their water tarrif is pretty high relative to ours.

    Your system is near to an indoor set up.....so that is very sunlight to promote alage growth. Not too sure if it will be the same why in an outdoor situation . Do you still dump your carbon in the chamber? Your TDS level is liken to a river situation.... That is wonderful to have.

    Have your Foam issue been resolved since we last spoke about the matter?
    Just to recap for bro pepper benefit.... Can share with us how much you feed on a daily basis?

    Wow...80cm they have reached..... I would love to see your kois bro....
    Please share with me on your achievement when you have the time to snap a few pics.

    Cheers.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 11:47:34 am
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Thank you for taking time to share with me your kois..... They are lovely and beatiful....

    Your pH value is wonderful to have. Mine fluctuate between day and night....
    Have not yet come up with a solution to maintain it stable between 7 to 7.5. Currently I have installed a ph monitoring gadget to warn me if it gets below 6.5.

    On the forming issue...... I don't think it has to do with plenty supply of air..... Something not right in the column of water......

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro TomyC

    Here is the condition of my oyster shells.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16079/image.jpg

    Attachments
    image.jpg 188K
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Here is a pic of my pH and temp as of yesterday evening.....

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/16080/image.jpg
    Attachments
    image.jpg 64K
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Ph fluctuation IMO is cause by the release of carbon dioxide by bacteria and koi. I reckon my setup helps outgass carbon dioxide in the water before it turns to carbonic acid. I also avoid overfeeding and keep the filter pretty clean thereby bacterial count is low. The daily flush and addition of 5% water maintains the alkalinity. I also dont have green water nor thick wall algae issues in my pond.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 12:40:51 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Do you think the froth is probably linked to cleaning out the filter frequently?
    Is there a possibility that when you cleaned the filter elements, you probably (and unavoidably) stirred up all manner of sediment and attached biofilm material and I’m guessing that this is at the bottom of the problem with the froth.

    We all know that protein-containing solutions will froth easily and since you’re constantly agitating the water with the return from the filter, I suspect that this is the reason for the persistent froth you’re seeing....... Your view?

    Btw.... Did you measure your pond DOC level?
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Thanks again for the feedback on the pH matter....

    I feed on average around 150 grams per day. Two times only.... Morning and late evening.

    Around every two weeks the pH will drop 0.5pH. I maintained it by adding sodium bicarbonate. So RM3.50 on a biweekly basis.

    Initially I was of the view that I do not have adequate coral and oyster....... Now...... from your feedback..... My view is not conclusive...... Ok, will explore for a solution.....

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    I dont think its because of the daily cleaning. Normally I just need to jetspray the brushes and flush the whole filter which takes just 5 to 10 mins a day. The jmats have remained relatively new(still green ). In certain times once a month I pull out the jmats and jetspray the bottom. Not really that much sediments and certainly not foul emitting at all.

    I do not think the water is laden at all with DOC. In fact IMO, the massive aeration easily separates the DOC most especially the fats from the koi food from the water. Same as a protein skimmer when after one feeds there will be some foaming released. In my case, I really dont bother removing the white froth as I see really no harm to the koi.

    My views on the use of sodium bicarbonate has not changed. Ive never like nor encourage the use of it except in times of emergency. Many times it gives an impression that there is still alkalinity for the bacteria to keep on multiplying to avoid a ph crash. However because of this too much of the wrong bacteria which multiplies faster in warmer water will populate the filter creating a situation of "over active filter". An over active filter consumes and release more carbonic acid and will outcompete for dissolve oxygen in the water. A pond with relatively the right stocking level for its pond size, some little alkalinity in the water and no over feeding, and no overactive filter will not require the use sodium bicarbonate.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 01:04:28 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Are the froth and bubbles begin around where the outlet pipe from the filter runs back into the pond?
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryew,

    I dont use the return pipe to the pond anymore. All returns go thru the bakki filter. For current I use just the air diffuers. I think the froth comes out from the where the diffuser and bakki shower and are pushed away. I have take sample of this white froth and water is quite clear once the bubble from the froth settles.

    Again I surmise the small bubles coming out from 460 lpm in a 20ton pond where koi are fed 6x a day traps the DOC from the food and poo before they are even consumed by algae. This is why I dont have problems with green water despite having no UV.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 01:20:11 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Those froth or bubbles do look like a nice bubble bath......

    In a mature pond and if the filtration system has been perfected or ideal..... And to me.... The baiki thing is like a miniature protein skimmer.......Would you agree that frothing or bubbles forming in a koi pond should not happen? To me...... Something is dead wrong in the water chemistry.....

    Can we conclude that the ERIC (the never ending river flow) system is just part of the clever marketing strategy?

  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryew,

    I do not think frothing issue is a big deal even in a mature pond. Just go to the indoor pond of japanese breeders where they employ lots of aeration and you can still see some frothing. And yes a bakki does act like a protein skimmer except that the foam returns to the pond.

    ERIC filtration is both marrketing and a very good filtration system. The science is sound and logical. It is easy to maintain. With regards to shimi and hikui issues, I have none so far despite that I have more kohaku in my pond. Our dealer even notice some high end kohaku that developed shimi when transfered to new pond setup with eric filtration, the shimi disappeared and has not returned.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HCDu

    We all need to realize that our Koi ponds are NOT miniature slices of the river.... They may look that way,......but in reality....... bio-chemically they are an ecosystem that is always on the verge of collapse...... Hehehe......

    Even with aggressive water changes, organics can never be diluted enough to mimic the natural levels where fishes have lived for thousands of years.....and......the creation of organics is a natural process of fish metabolism.

    No one knows for sure the total make up of organic compounds in the koi pond and what specific effects they have on different organisms. There is now firm evidence that organics stunt koi growth. The old mystery of how a koi will grow only as large as its pond has been solved. It has nothing to do with the volume of water or the size of the pond.....the organics accumulation is the culprit.

    If we accept your pond water has matured..... The likely cause of this frothing has to do with the reaction between the ambient ammonia and chlorine in your water body. Do you measure your ORP like you measure your TDS? ORP reading high or low?

    Cheers
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Hmmm....::: I must say.... There is no direct correlation advantages of the ERIC sys in relation to the Shimi or Hikui things....... It is a False Representation to directly correlate it to justify its use....

    However.... It does mimic the flushing of our toilet on a daily basis... I have problem with how it will sit in the garden.....hehehe....

    Can you tell us your rationale of introducing the baiki stuff in your final circuit before water return to pond.... If you have mimic the never ending river system..,. I am curious.

    Cheers.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    Bro HDCu

    Frothing or bubbles forming is an issue to many..... It is a distraction and it rob the viewer attention to its inhabitants......

    Do you have the following in your pond.....

    1) observed hair algae despite low nutrient levels reading,

    2) foaming in the Baiki shower or in the corners of pond and chambers,

    3) An oily film with a tint of brown like coffee layer on the froth itself

    Cheers

  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    On the first place, why even measure ORP. The use of ORP in the koi hobby has been the invention of westerners who try to figure out best water for the pond. The japanese breeders dont even care about ORP. Once there was a hobbyist who measure my pond using his ORP meter which he was eager to use and test. After taking some reading he got something like just 150 reading or something, far from what westerners recommend at 350. Eventually he gave up with his ORP testing as I point out articles where Mike Snaden tested mudpond and indoor ponds in Japan where ORP reading was even much lower.

    IMO, a highly oxidative water is never good to the skin and color development of a koi. This is why I do not agree in the use of O3 or ozone or changing more than 20% of the water unless necessary nor bombarding often the pond with PP unless again if its necessary.

    I believe pond water does not have chlorine in it as I have tested in already. . Ammonia reading is always 0 as well.

    In my opinion growth and development is dependent on the correct food and quantity at the right temperature and dissolve oxygen inducive for growth, proper genetics and a stress free environment. To achieve stress free environment, good 'alive' water , not necessarily crystal clear water, with proper stocking levels is important.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 03:32:52 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 03:13:02 pm
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    My use of bakki serves 3 purpose:

    1. Promotes good heterotropic bacteria that help lower nitrate levels
    2. Reduces water temperature
    3. Degass nitrogen, carbon dioxide, ammonia

    Eric filters promote a clean filter both mechanical and bio as often as possible. More oftentimes, many hobbyist tend to forget that static bio like jmats will collect waste ( even bacteria that die off will produce waste). The problem is compounded when mechanical filters like brushes or seives cannot filter all. Eric system is not designed to lower nitrate. As a standalone, water changes will deal with nitrates.

    Bakki prefers the use of water free from fines so as not to block the media which houses the nitrifying and heterotropic bacteria.

    Combining both filter system provides a more synergetic approach to filtration especially in warm environments.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-07-12 03:26:44 pm
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    I thought heterotrophic microbes tend to block the growth of the "good bacteria" in our pond filter.... No?

    Now from the west we move to east......
    I think if we try to make a direct correlation to the jap breeder pond is also not representative.... These breeders ponds are not like ours.....whereby.... We keep our koi for years to be enslaved to and to view and enjoy as a hobby. I think most probably their kois do not swim more than 6 months in their ponds.
  • harryyewharryyew July 2014
    Posts: 396
    If Eric filters promote clean fine water.... Why is there a need to have a microfiber cloth to cover up your bakki shower?

    Your pond look green from the pic. Do you find algae on your brushes?

    Your kois are beautiful.
  • HDCuHDCu July 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Harryyew,

    In Japan, there are growing indoor and concrete outdoor ponds where some koi are grown all year. SFF has it for mature kois while INC sakai has lots of it in ISAWA.

    Heterotropic bacteria will compete for space to grow on against Nitryfying bacteria but they can coexist. EXAMPLE: On the surface of bacteria house, nitrifying bacteria will grow. In lower oxygen environment found in the cavities of the filter media, heterotropic bacteria will grow and populate. In Japanese mats that are heavily aerated, nitrifying bacteria populate while a thick much layer at the bottom may promote more.heterotropic bacteria, both good and bad.


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