Koi Ponds ≠ Landscape Ponds
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Firstly, need to disclaim. I do design and build ponds, but nothing of what I am about to share is about that. It's more about the common things I have seen in pond owners and how they can make the koi hobby hard for themselves.

    When we build a pond, I think we need to know and understand that there is no perfect system. Any system will require our assistance into making it work. And work better. Be it through water maintenance, water change, flushing or even washing of filter, we need to know how this will affect the overall pond performance. Hence, the term husbandry skill.

    Each pond should be built to be easy to manage and this does mean not trying to complicate the system for small benefits. The more complicated the system the harder it is to maintain and the easier it is to mess up the overall ecology of the pond. Just imagine to get good water, you already need to flush, wash, fill. And now imagine to flush you need to flush your chambers, flush a direct bottom drain, flush the skimmer, flush the bead filter and god knows what else more. This ends up to be such a big chore that it easily causes reluctance to clean or rushing through the clean.

    I think the key to a good koi pond is not only the water flow, filter but the suiting of those to your manageable maintenance routine. The first question for my pond design to commence is always how it will be maintained by the owner. And what his koi aspirations are. So before we go designing and finding out about a good pond and filter, we must start with how are we going to do our maintenance.
    Post edited by James at 2014-05-26 08:10:29 pm
  • gerrygerry May 2014
    Posts: 777
    (Y) I'll have to agree to that.
  • TomyCTomyC May 2014
    Posts: 103
    I agree with your thoughts. Can you kindly share the details of your best pond designs?
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    When I bought my current house, it came with a landscape pond and I had to make heavy modifications to the filtration and piping systems to turn it into a workable koi pond. Thanks a bunch to bro @megatron who pointed out all the weaknesses in the landscape pond design. Therefore definitely agree that a landscape pond is not an optimal koi pond.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-28 10:34:07 am
  • TomyCTomyC May 2014
    Posts: 103
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  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    To be fair I think landscape ponds as huge as that are very rare in Msia and Spore given the cost of land in the major cities and we were referring to the "average" joe homes. ;-)
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-05-28 12:59:06 pm
  • TomyCTomyC May 2014
    Posts: 103
    It's a large example, but could be scaled down and work the same. Just stating that a good koi pond can be landscaped properly.
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Yes agree. Basically the heart of a koi pond is the filtration and flow system. How each individual choose to decorate the exterior is totally up to the individual's preference.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    The notion of a koi vs landscape pond is not to say that we cannot have a nice landscaped koi pond. But there are restrictions. For example above water returns have to be managed to ensure it complements the flow of water in the koi pond. And also landscape ponds have no specific need for efficient filtration which is dramatically different for koi ponds. We always feed heavily to groom kois. This is a key and major difference.

    And another major difference is really where the pond budget goes to. As with any pond, there is a budget cap and deciding how to use that money is ultimately the key maker or breaker between koi and landscape pond. Therefore it is important for each owner to know his/her long term priorities.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    Also don't forget that another factor is stocking density.
    A few fish in a large volume of flowing water can probably be left to its own devices, but a large ( often growing ) number of koi in a small captive body of water can be a place waiting for an accident to happen.

    Fully agree - at the end of the day it is actually dependent on what you want, and how much money you are prepared to spend.

    Anything can be achieved if we have the resources, but if it is a relaxing and rewarding hobby that we want, then we ignore the golden rules at our own peril. :) :) :)
    Mike Lee
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Overstocked ponds can be built to be such. I have had 60 over kois in a 35 ton pond before and with simple tweak, all kois can do well too.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    Agreed - my 7+ ton pond has 17 two year olds inside, and the water is crystal clear and all water parameters within control ... but I use a gravity fed 2 vortex, settlement chamber plus UV system, PLUS a WaterCo bead filter.
    Including a back up gen set, expensive and a bit of an overkill - and the cheapest solution would have been simply for me to reduce the number of Koi !!!

    Again, depends on what you want, and how much you want to spend. :-D
    Mike Lee
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Wow, your system is a huge over spec. What is your bead model? Over filtration from a bead is prone to ph crash. Pls monitor this closely.

    Show us some of your kois so it could inspire more to keep koi and not water. ^:)^
  • ikankoikauikankoikau May 2014
    Posts: 1,053
    Koi pond and landscape can be in harmony. I believe no issue on this. Certainly you need a space and creative idea. This can be achieved if the hobbyist just need a pond and reasonable number of kois and not putting extra gadgets which cant get along with natural view. Still, if these gadgets can be hidden, it will turn out well.

    The problem with most ponds and active competitors, we have "add on" which doesnt blend well to complement the landscape. After all, most initial purpose to have a pond is to have a good natural view at home that soothing the ambient. However when the owner turn himself into "kichis", everything will be compromised. Having high quality kois will supersede landscape and view. They must have created the word Kichi(koi crazy) for the right reason... ;-)
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    " Over filtration from a bead is prone to ph crash. Pls monitor this closely. " - thanks for the advice, but is there a reason for this ? So far I have been lucky and I only measure every 2 weeks or so. Touch wood, never had a problem. My only problem in years was when TNB had an extended breakdown - hence a Honda gen set for such emergencies.

    What I do have is Nitrate which climbs after about a week ( 40+ ) - that is the reason for my 20% water change. Have never been able to fully solve this - but I suspect it is caused by the healthy and fast growing fish, and the fact that they normally win every arguement for more food.

    Yes, I have videos and pictures if anybody is interested but I will need my daughters assistance this weekend. I am hopelessly computer challenged ! :-(
    Mike Lee
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Overstocked!!! Did I hear overstocking??? :-)) :-D
    I have about 50 kois in my 30 ton pond......... :-)) :-D
    Everytime I reduced the stock level, it goes back up
    without warning............ :-(
    Some how, the numbers will stabilize to a number! Overstocked laaaaa.... period! :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri, same here. \m/
  • russellrussell May 2014
    Posts: 48
    Yeah man, I stop counting these days. Totally overstocked.
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahahahaha........... when come to kois, I dont have the will power!!!
    I am always weak....... :-)) :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar May 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    :-)) :-))
    Trick is leave the wallet at home. ;-)
  • ShukriShukri May 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Or just look at the new fishes from afar............like outside the dealers' perimeter!!! :-))
    Just wind down the wind screen and try to look at the fishes from where you park the car........... :-)) Since you cant see any, hence do not have to buy........ :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar May 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    :-)) :-)) :-))
  • niveknivek May 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    We all look at computer screen also gone case already..not much hope left :-))
  • HDCuHDCu May 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Wow. 50 koi in a 30 ton pond! I have just 11 for my 22 ton pond and I already find it overstocked.
  • gerrygerry May 2014
    Posts: 777
    Leave the wallet at home but bring credit card :-))
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bring the best fish home and likely others u see will not b good enuf already. (tmi)
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    " Bring the best fish home and likely others u see will not b good enuf already. " - this is a sound strategy e.g. when I used to buy fishing rods / reels like crazy years ago.
    Bought the top of line St. Croix and G Loomis rods, and also top of line reels from Penn, Abu Garcia, Daiwa, DAM when they were still being manufactured in their country of origin.
    Never looked at other less established stuff from then on.

    Does not work with Koi however. Unlike the above fishing equipment where people tend to treasure the " original " stuff - Koi are still evolving, and new introductions are seen to be superior i.e they are seen to be getting better all the time. :-( :-( :-(
    Mike Lee
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Mike, I think that signature piece u find is the benchmark piece. If this benchmark is so-so I think u r right, every shipment also can find better. But I m not measuring by price but potential and real outcome of the koi. So to have that benchmark piece, well for me anyways is not easy.
  • MfwleeMfwlee May 2014
    Posts: 355
    Agreed - for those who want to have a pond of koi that they are proud off, set a benchmark, and gradually try to improve quality.

    On an aside, the other reason why my fishing equipment story does not work is that a top line Koi will pay for the most expensive St Croix ... together with the Porsche that you can put the stupid rod in. :-D
    Mike Lee
  • JamesJames May 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    :-))
  • ShukriShukri June 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Mike Lee,
    I am a Gloomis guy....... :-D used to have St Croix
    Baitcasters......... Morrum (Abu garcia), Shimano Scorpion Mg, Daiwa Zillion 50 years Anniversary reels, and a few other classic baitcasters...........

    My favorite hunting grounds are Tasik Banding and Royal Belum.........
    And I am a natural baitcasting fellow............. :-D I know both the traditional as well as
    the latest baitcasting techniques........... I may like Mee Hon goreng for breakfast, but definitely hate an occasional but rare 'Mee Hon' when casting especially when I am not concentrating or casting against head winds.......... :-D
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • HWONGHWONG June 2014
    Posts: 286
  • HWONGHWONG June 2014
    Posts: 286
    Bro.Shukri..beehoon goreng...tell me. I spend more time untangling lines than fishing.
    G.loomis fly fishing neh? I bottom fish, jig, casting on spinning reel and lastly fry fishing.
    My gears have not seen daylight for 10 years.
  • MfwleeMfwlee June 2014
    Posts: 355
    " Bro.Shukri..beehoon goreng...tell me. I spend more time untangling lines than fishing."

    Sounds like me as well, except that I still fish minimum every 2 - 4 weeks, and have done so for the past 20 years ! Maybe we 3 can get together some time. I tend to keep around the Klang Valley nowadays.

    Friends are off to Belum on Tuesday, but these are to dream about as I get more mature ( read as older ! )
    Mike Lee
  • JamesJames June 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Wong sifu, that kind of pond for most of us means need to rob bank... #:-s
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar June 2014
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro James,

    To get that kind of pond and house, need to rob few banks wo

    :-)) :-))
  • JamesJames June 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro TK, I m going b in Penang this week. Recommend which bank pls. >:-)
  • ShukriShukri June 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    Wong and Mike,
    Lets get together one of these days............ fish haruan perhaps..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • MfwleeMfwlee June 2014
    Posts: 355
    Shukri - it will be a pleasure, but I am finding it a bit difficult at my age to go tromping all over soggy ground like I used to do many years ago.
    Maybe you guys want to try the " Toman Pond " in Fish Valley, Semenyih ? This is a resort, with restaurants, toilets, and chalets in the making. Very safe and comfortable for a family outdoor picnic as well.
    Yell anytime you are interested - I am happily retired ( mostly ) and prefer the week days for obvious reasons. :) :) :)
    Mike Lee
  • ShukriShukri June 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    (Y) (Y) (Y)
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.


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