relation of water change and beni quality
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Starting this thread as an offshoot of several comments made by hobbyist with regards whether too much water change can affect the development of beni. Lets hear your thoughts on this matter.
  • ShukriShukri June 2014
    Posts: 4,881
    I come from the school of thoughts that do not have problems with this particular issue. I sometimes change a lot of water and at times change very little water. So far I have not seen any difference, with regards to the effect on the Beni.

    When I feed color food or turn on the Chiller, I can see a noticeable improvement of the Beni. A prolong non feeding of the color pellets will in fact cause the shade of the Beni tone to change.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Similar to bro Shukri, mine is a constant 20% daily drip with no significant effect on beni or sumi that is noticeable.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-06-06 09:18:35 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    I have changed from as little as 2 to a maximum of 10 percent a day thru flushing my filters. If I do 2 to 5 percent I just rely on my 24hours drip if its more I top up with some tap water and drop a few sodium thiosulfate crystals.

    I have noticed that if I change water a lot more frequently, beni becomes will weaken a little but shiroji really improves the next day. The difference is not really much but I swear there is subtle difference.

    I am not the only one to notice this as my dealer believes this as well. His partner though thinks there are high quality beni that are not affected however IMO higher quality thicker beni is less prone. I have observed this in my pond as well.
    He also observes deep well water does not cause this thinning. This I am unable to confirm. He did ask if this issue is observed in other countries.

    On the other hand beni development seem much better in mudponds vs small concrete pond setup if one ask many dealers.

    This has made me think whats in the new city water introduce. Could it be some trace of chlorine that maybe not harmful to the koi but can affect beni? I know that in several studies conducted there will be trace chlorine (an oxidating gas) even when it passes thru a carbon filter.

    Another reason is a fairly simple explanation, if water change is small or using a 24 drip, the change in water parameters, (ph, temperature, minerals) is less and therefore koi gets less stress. Less stress will always be better for koi and that includes its beni.

    There is also a question of ORP levels. In mudponds, orp levels are not high but water quality is pretty good because of very low stocking ratio. This seems better for developing beni in ypung koi. In concrete ponds there needs to be a frequent change of water to promote growth because stocking level is much higher. Frequent water change of tap water will increase ORP levels.

    Lastly, it could be just that beni quality cannot catch up with growth which is promoted by frequent water change. Maybe slowing down water change and thereby slowing down growth may be a good thing.

    As of now, I have slowed down on water change as my pond has already matured. Growth is still there and beni has improved a lot for almost all koi.

    Disclaimer: as every pond environment and inhabitant and observant is unique I do believe one can get different answers. My observations are just that only keen observation in my own opinion. At the end of the day, what works with you is what is important.


    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-06-06 09:09:39 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Nivek,

    If its constant how do you know if beni improves. if you do just lets say 5 percent a day for a week, would the beni improve better?
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-06-06 09:10:54 pm
  • frostbitezfrostbitez June 2014
    Posts: 109
    hi bros
    in my opinion koi will have more solid beni overtime especially when their growth rate are slower (60cm up in my pond) theres no need for colour food
    but lowering temperature and keeping pH between 7-7.5 also help for good beni
    cmiiw
    han
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro frostbitez,

    During our last national koi show, there was a matsunosuke sanke around 70cm that had very deep beni and very yellow skin. This koi was grown in a pond with no chiller, lots of string algae, and believe it or not had a TDS of 900ppm and a PH of 8.5. It was awarded the best sanke variety by Japanese judges and praised by Mr. Toshio Sakai himself. After this koi was transfered to dealer pond, in less than a month, shiroji cleared up and everyone was simply stunned by her very deep beni in contrast to her shiroji. Mind you that sanke was not cheap to begin with.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-06-06 09:22:03 pm
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro @HDCu, good question/observation. However my super kao kao feedrate would not allow me to go down to 5% daily drip :-)) :-)) :-))
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Nivek,

    if your mechanical filtration is ok and pond is mature, doesnt it mean you can reduce water change? In my case whether I change water 5 or 10 percent a day, water quality stays the same. (Same tds, same nitrate, zero ammonia and zero nitrite). The only difference I suppose is in a week with less water change there is slight green tint.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-06-06 09:28:47 pm
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro HDCu, yes nitrate, ammonia and nitrite would be 0 but I'm not too sure about TDS though. Currently I'm able to maintain about TDS : 48. Like most old school fishkeepers, I like to have high water changes to maintain water quality and touch wood, there has been no disease outbreak so far (touchwood again in case I just jinxed myself) :-))

    Back to the original question on beni, I believe genetics play a very important role in the quality of the beni on top of soft vs hard beni. Have encountered kois whose beni would regrow back to original lustre even though after some accidental knocks that removed scales/flesh. However there are those that will never return under the same condition.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-06-06 09:46:23 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Nivek,

    I dont think old school teaches us a daily 20 percent water change a day. Instead I believe old school teaches to stock moderately and feed properly instead of kaw kaw. :-))

    When I had a four ton pond with 13koi I fed like crazy as well and change 80% water a day to maintain tds below 100. Hehe. Had unbelievable growth however koi were pushed to grow somewhat.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2014-06-06 09:48:46 pm
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Hahaha you've never bred discus before right bro HDCu. 90% water change twice a day! :-))

    However this is my own practice to compensate for my overstocked small pond. 12 tons with 16 kois. There are kichis who have ponds in the hills with non stop mountain water flow and no filter. The beni was excellent.
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-06-06 10:00:08 pm
  • ythyth June 2014
    Posts: 118
    Bro Hdcu...you have told what I intend to write too :)...it is my observations too :)
  • ythyth June 2014
    Posts: 118
    There is a hobbyist and a local dealer arguments before..,can't mentioned their name ..,,the hobbyist can't grow his exp kois in his pond even water parameters damn good...but the dealer home pond can grow to best when bring back those kois to his home pond even the lab result showed that the dealer home pond water parameters is not that good compare to the hobbyist pond,why?? No one can explained too :)
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Maybe due to pond shape or water flow direction, bro yth?
    Post edited by nivek at 2014-06-06 10:29:45 pm
  • ythyth June 2014
    Posts: 118
    The hobbyist keep 3/4 tons per koi but the dealer keep all big kois about 30 plus pcs jumbo kois in the 100 ton pond ...,just don't know :)..,hobbyist is using top filtration system that costs rm100k plus :),,maybe husbandary skills,,,we are Talking 3mil above koi :)...sometime the dealer pond turn green too...,but he just managed to grow big kois :)
  • niveknivek June 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    I see. Ya maybe something like green fingers. Some have it and some don't.
  • ythyth June 2014
    Posts: 118
    The dealer even told me green water is good for kois but some hobbyists just don't agree but results judge :)
  • HDCuHDCu June 2014
    Posts: 1,117
    Sometimes I think too much of a good thing is not good. Is too much food good? Is too much water change better? Is achieving ultra clear water good? Is having the best state of the art filtration good?
  • ythyth June 2014
    Posts: 118
    Haha bro Hdcu totally agreed...after these years in this hobby.,I learned that no to be too particular.,, too theorylistic.,,just do and groom to our best and enjoy the hobby hahaha
  • JamesJames June 2014
    Posts: 1,964
    Feeding is one major key to koi grooming. Quality of food, use of food and this is one comparison never made or is hard to make. I for one never measure my pond parameters but am confident enough parameters are decent. I advocate to looking at the kois for the sign. If your water is good, they will be generally healthy. If your water is great they will thrive. And if your water is not well, your kois will be too.

    My pond is 35 tons and I definitely have more than 35 kois. Went to beyond 60 before I started selling.

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