Grooming Koi - The Myth
  • JamesJames March 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Keeping koi has constantly been referred to as a troublesome task. For most, kois easily become sick, are sensitive to water changes, develop diseases and outbreaks rampantly and for unknown reasons are healthy one day and dead the next. I think we all have our own experiences to share and some have been more successful in learning through their experiences than others. And some have even simply given up from the cumbersome hobby.

    For others, this hobby keeps us constantly on our toes and gets us to do things that we would never do in our routine life. Perhaps this is the true meaning of the hobby. The passion for something that results in us going the extra mile to doing less routine things. And since the forum has been too quiet, let me share my most current challenge/experience in my pond.

    ADDITION OF NEW KOIS
    More often than not, adding a new koi turns our pond eco upside down. We resort to QT to reduce this occurence, with some having a meticulous regime in QT. For me, I have always had a simple QT process without much problems. Just a week ago though, I added in 6 new kois from 3 farms, which have been in QT for 2-weeks and the result in my pond was a bacterial outbreak.

    Have a look see and let's all share what we would do about this.

  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    I would clean filter and add salt immediately. Alternatively, add Kenkona and observe for a few days. I have similar problem constantly especially after heavy feeding regime..

    My friend suggest I improve my filtration.

  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar March 2015
    Posts: 1,763
    Bro Urbaneffects. If the problem due to heavy feeding regime, then it's ammonia spike. Do not add medication as it will worsen the problem. Add bio like Pond protec and pond plus which will reduce the ammonia.

    As for the above case, I will transfer the sick koi to small tank, add in Yellow powder and salt to 0.3% for few hours (sometime up to 1 day). This will reduce the redness at the koi. Once the redness reduce, I will put the koi back to pond and add medication like kenkona if necessary.
    Post edited by Bthineshkumar at 2015-03-27 01:57:14 pm
  • JamesJames March 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Urban, I have a 1.5 ton FGT with 6 kois in it, from 45cm - 75cm. All male and fed 3-5 times a day. The wonder is, filter not washed for 3-4 months everytime and all are healthy. The key to this... water change.

    Bro TK, you are already veteran la. And a Kenkona fan.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar March 2015
    Posts: 1,763
    :-)) :-)) Easy medication lol
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    Bro , Pond Protect & Pond Plus are mainly for aquaculture or shrime culture. Are they both good/effective for our koi pond?
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar March 2015
    Posts: 1,763
    Both are very effective for koi pond bro. Trust me as I'm been using them. My normal feeding is 4-5 times and sometimes I go crazy to feed up to 7 times. At this point I use them (the one for ammonia remover, sorry can't remember which is which :-)) ). Ammonia would be reduced instanly. Cheers
  • ervinervin March 2015
    Posts: 5
    hi i am new to this forum. i have had the koi in 15 years . earlier i had discus in 10 yers . my pond is 20 cubic meters . summer of 2014 i was on holiday in poland and bougth 15 pieces koi ( 20 cm ) .after a week was 3 sick of bacterial attacked (they went into a pond 1500 liters ) medications is for me iffy sometimes it works sometimes with worse results. i bougth an sheap ozoneagregat 3 ounce and started running agregated in the small pond . i think i know what caused the outbreak . the transport by road and ferry in 30 hours . to counteract the stress i covered half the pond surface with a disc . after two weeks they were healthy again . do you have problems to understand . i blame google for i can not write in english , with kind regards ervin
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    bro. where to get pond protect n pond plus?
  • HDCuHDCu March 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro James,

    I hope your koi will soon recover. It is my understanding and experience that whenever there is an introduction of new koi, there are always inherent risk of koi, either the old or the new ones getting sick.

    Sometimes an introduction of a new koi or several koi in an old pond can create some stress on the new and/or the old koi in the pond. Some koi that have been caught and bagged from the dealers premises and transported to a new pond can be in a weakened state depending on the condition of the koi. This is why quarantine can help relieve stress of a new koi. But even after quarantine, sometimes an entry of a new koi will create some stress levels to some of the old inhabitants. And if the koi is weakened by stress, it can be attacked by opportunistic bacteria or free swimming parasites already in the pond.

    So this begs the question whats the point of doing quarantine when there is still a chance of koi getting sick. For one, reducing bacterial and parasitic contamination to almost a harmless minimum will ensure less problems. It is my experience, whenever I buy koi from a trusted dealer I check first if the koi is healthy in not only how it eats but also how it swims. Once I bring it home I treat the koi in small tank with pure oxygen dosed with a safe antibacterial antiparasite treatment for 2 hours. If the quarantined koi is relatively well while being treated, I put the new koi directly in the pond. I then salt the whole pond 0.3% and then add a little elbagin to calm all the koi.

    I did notice also that a well aerated pond with temperatures that are not stressful to the koi will have less problems during introduction of a new koi. Feeding food with lots of antioxidants like vitamin C also increases the koi's resistance to fight off problems caused by imbalance in the system like an increase in the population of koi in the pond. I do practice also no feeding for the old koi at least 3 days before and after I introduce a new koi in the pond. For the new koi, I request the dealer not to feed 24 hours before I bring home the koi.

    IMO, koi does not really easily get sick just because of water change, develop diseases and outbreaks rampantly and for unknown reasons are healthy one day and dead the next. There is always a reason and it up to hobbyist to learn to identify these and learn from others as well.
  • ervinervin March 2015
    Posts: 5
    best urbaneffect , unfortunately i do not understand (google) what you mean by pond protects n plus. if your time permits , you may be able to explain in more detail ervin
  • niveknivek March 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    30% daily water trickle 24x7x365 days ensures clean water with strong kois.
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar March 2015
    Posts: 1,763
    Wah lau, 30% daily mati liao :-)) :-))

    Bro urbaneffect, not sure where u can get in kl, check out koi shops in tropicana

    Cheers
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    30% per day water change for me means 3-4 ton of water change. plus domestic household use. total 5 ton a day of water. My water bill will be substantial. Any other effective options??
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    30% per day water change for me means 3-4 ton of water change. plus domestic household use. total 5 ton a day of water. My water bill will be substantial.
  • ervinervin March 2015
    Posts: 5
    hello again, i suspect pond plus is a preparation to keep the water fresh, i use only one kg salt per ton of water . i live in a climate that is extremely hard for koi. a warm winter season get my loi no food in five monts a cold winter no food at 7 months ( happened only once ) mormal winter no food at 6 months, my koi i think are healty . the most koi i had in 15 years. i have frogs who wanted to hibernated in the pond but they died . 5 pieces big as your handrotted under the ice and poisoned the water so three of my koi died. one kilo of salt per ton water keeps the frogs away. i replace all the water once in the summer and once in the fall and kleaning the pond so they have fresh water for the winter.
  • niveknivek March 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    Yup 3 to 4 tons a day for me.
  • HDCuHDCu March 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Kevin,

    Have you tried just 20% or 10% water change instead of 30%? What is the effect on your koi with less water change?

    I normally just change 5 to 10% a day and have really no problems with growth , skin and health of the koi. My stocking ratio now is a little less than 1 large koi for every 2000 liter of water (moderate stocked).
  • kolampkolamp March 2015
    Posts: 222
    Bro nivek,

    Huge water trickle after wc in order to prepare for newcomers make my male fish very2 gatal & my female kigoi kena raped previously :-((
  • urbaneffectsurbaneffects March 2015
    Posts: 134
    Pond Plus & Pond Protect. How much you would use to control ammonia in heavy feeding in a 15 ton pond?
  • niveknivek March 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    Mine is a bit unique as my water trickle is linked to my misting nozzles so I still need about 30% to power the misting/water trickle. Found dead birds before in my pond and kois weren't affected at all. Could be due to the high water change that diluted everything to make the water non/less toxic.
  • lautslauts March 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Kevin,

    Your incoming water must be very good else a 30% water change will stress your kois. Sound like a flow thro system . How long have you been running this ? And have you tested the incoming water ?
    My incoming water register pH 9 ( the max the strip can measure) . This gave me problem during water changes at 20% per week, the kois will be lethargic and some flashing too. I recently change water dechlorinator to Seachem Safe :-D. Good for ammonia , nitrite and helps in coating scale. Since using Seachem Safe , the flashing during water changes stopped.

    Bros , Pond Protect is the one for ammo and nitrite reduction. If you are running a pond for months and it registers ammo/ nitrite. Pond protect is NOT the solution. Something is wrong with your filter set up, probably overstocking way above what the filter can handle.


    ts

  • niveknivek March 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    30% jet sprayed out of nozzles over a period of 24 hours will get rid of any chlorine even before the water hit the pond. My incoming water is of ph7 with TDS at 11 and yes with this system its almost like a flow through system.
  • JamesJames March 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro HDCU, check him out after Day 2... :-D



  • lautslauts March 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bros,

    I got 2 foil packs of Pond Protect and 2kg of Seachem Safe. Excess from my recent QT. Use Safe for temp relieve of ammonia while medicating and Pond Protect after many water changes to remove ammo.
    pm me if interested.

    ts
  • JamesJames March 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Nivek, using spray jet to replace water is a cool idea, since it cools the pond too. But do you check the temp fluctuation caused by this? Incoming water temp can be well above the 30s on a hot day. And so much water gets changed in your pond can easily cause your pond temp to be cool in the night and warmer throughout the day.
  • niveknivek March 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    Bro James, the incoming water is constant even on a hot day as it is direct from the main water pipes from the reservoir. Only water sitting in water tanks like those in apartments would be affected by ambient temperature after prolonged exposure. My pond only fluctuates around 1C between day/night.
    Post edited by nivek at 2015-03-31 10:26:29 am
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Kevin ,

    Chlorine will not dissipate much if direct from source pipe to spray bar direct to pond. Simple to just test for chlorine.
    According to MOH site approved chlorine level is between 0.2 to 5 ppm, you may be getting low level but nothing to stop them from increasing to 5ppm. This was what likely happened to my source water when local water authority Syabas hand over pump reservoir mgt to another party.
    My water used to be abt pH 7 now pH 9 , out of chart. I only realize much later when kois always flash and lethargic during weekly 20% change. I think they also added ammonia. Only after i change by water dechlorinator did this flashing , and pH down to 8 , stop.
    So pls be careful with your 30% daily water change.

    ts
  • niveknivek April 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    Ok here's a simple math to clarify the point across. 30% water change (3000 litres) over a period of 24 hours is 125litres per hour. 125 litres per hour in a 12000 ton pond is 1% of total pond volume.
    Post edited by nivek at 2015-04-01 01:35:16 pm
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro Kevin,

    i can understand why you can get away not dechlor, the change is gradual. But ultimately it depends on the concentration of piped in chlorine.
    On the math , yours actually 25% change with intensity of 125L per hr 1 % . While mine is new 12kT water added to reduced 60T pond =48T hence change should be a similar 25% with intensity of abt 4kL per hr hence 8% total pond volume per hrs.
    So with your heavy feeding and other factors , the residual chlorine will likely act on the organics sparing your kois .
    Do you use any prefilters with carbon etc or straight from pipe?

    ts
  • niveknivek April 2015
    Posts: 1,251
    Ahh yes bro Lauts. Why not trickle 24/7 into the pond for the gradual change? And no, I do not use any carbon prefilter, only the small cannister mesh type to remove solids.
  • JamesJames April 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    A small n controlled dose of chlorine can keep good water in check I feel. I used to change 10 tons of water per day without anti-chlorine, in 5 rapid cycles.
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    One sifu like to say , devil is in the detail , indeed. Ultimately is the end result that matters.

    Bro Kevin ,
    If i were to run your trickle set up of 25% per day , it would mean 15kL per day or 105kL per week !! compared to my current 10k -12kL. My water parameters are good with my weekly filter washing and water change. Nitrate at 10-20ppm , pH 7.5 , temp 25-26C and kois are doing well. i don't think trickle will improve my water any further except put me on constant alert of chlorine overdose from source water . ;-)

    Bro James ,

    i do agree small chlorine doses may be good. i do a small trickle from mains whenever i pull the BD daily, just to top up level back for fixed surface skimmer to work.

    ts
  • JamesJames April 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro TS, I agree it is the ultimate result that matters. I think obsession with parameters are meaningless if we do not watch the effect on kois. That is why koi grooming is an art, not just pure science.

    I happen to love more incoming new water into the pond. Even rain water. :">
  • lautslauts April 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Me too bro James . Especially when it is free :-D
  • JamesJames April 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    :-)) u're definitely a very different koi hobbyist bro TS.
  • ShukriShukri April 2015
    Posts: 4,881
    I have my fair share of dissapointments........... Kois died due to no reasons, and getting sick from time to time. I have learn to accept.......
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Good topic for sharing bro James. I agree, the forum a bit quite lately plus it was downed q frequently. It's good to have the forum back (Y)

    As for me, my approach towards this hobby has changed compared to few years back. The key word is RELAX and enjoy the hobby. I used to be jumpy when I saw reddish, cut or anything visually which was not normal with my kois. Before I start to medicate, I would just carry out partial water change(10-20%) and monitor for another 15 to 24hrs. Then only I dosed Kenkona. For obvious problem like anchor worm or fish lice, just apply the Dimilin. On medicating, I have the luxury of not being present while doing the treatment(which is less stress for me) as I would be away. When I got back, things were back to normal :-D

    Often hobbyist medicated pond unnecessarily without knowing the real problem. Impatient to see the result of treatment is another thing. That's why I have said earlier ... Relax.

    For new purchased kois, I just continue with my normal routine which I hv practised many years ago. Not that I am trying to advertise or saying good things about my product, but it has honestly been my quarantine regime. Certainly there are many other medications that might serve the same purpose.

    1 hr short bath with Kenkona Koi and straight into the pond. If the next day the other kois were showing any stress sign, I will dose one round of Kenkona Koi. There was once I skipped this routine bcoz I need to rush to the airport and things went haywire after 3days I got back. Reddish skin, reddish fins, lethargic and flashing were the result. A partial water change and two rounds of Kenkona Koi did the job. So far this has kept my kois in healthy condition for many years. Thank God.

    On water change issue, we had a good discussion on this before. Water source parameter needs to be check from time to time. Mainly the PH. As many of us aware, adding anti chlorine can have secondary effect on producing Ammonia. I hv personally tested and experienced this. Therefore I always top up water before the bacteria stage in the filtration system. To further confirm, carry out Ammonia/Nitrite test from the water in the pump chamber to ensure no Ammonia or Nitrite is introduced into the pond. As I get use to my routine, I dont check any more. I will take indication from how my kois behaved to check for any abnormalities.

    So my approach now is more relaxing as I already established and know my pond characteristic. I am suggesting hobbyist to get to know your pond(every pond is different but with the same basic) and have a consistent routine and relax... and enjoy this hobby.

    IKK

  • JamesJames April 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Capt, precisely what I was trying to drive at when I started this topic. Key point is being calm and doing the right thing to the pond, and not just panicking and start dosing n medicating. Medication in itself is a stress causer, and especially dosing wrongly. As I showed the tancho showa healed within 24 hours with salt alone.

    Knowing your own pond is something that I think many hobbyist ignore.
  • ShukriShukri April 2015
    Posts: 4,881
    Hahahahaha, thanks for sharing guys.... Even when one or two of my precious kois died, I am quite relax now...... This is part of the hobby. Life goes on........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • etanoetano April 2015
    Posts: 471
    Speaking of relax and keep cool, I can't remember the last time I drain out and washed the filter chambers. I think it must have been more than 2 years! I still do weekly (not consistent) flushing of the settlement chamber. Reduced feeding compare to before. My fishes are healthy but not bulky (but many are male anyway).

    Perhaps, if they can talk, they will report to me fishery department for abusing them :-)
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • JamesJames April 2015
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Elmen, I have a few male kois too, and with some sinking food they can bulk to be alike female. But maybe because I feed quite a bit so the male kois get a chance to feed before all food are gobbled up.

    Here is an example (taken few months back)
  • ervinervin April 2015
    Posts: 5
    hello all friends today spring is here and a lovely time has begun . i have started on my filters and fed my koi .. food that formed in water with crushed garlic. they`ve been without food for five and a half months and everyone lives . it takes a week before they become accustomed herself at me for eating out of my hand, have a good day greetings ervin from the cold scandinavia ( sweden )
  • ikankoikauikankoikau April 2015
    Posts: 1,053
    Wow... 5 and a half months... :O


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