Skin v Shiroji
  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    Not the same thing! I think many hobbyists confuse skin quality and shiroji. Although related, I feel the 2 things are actually independent. A koi with great shiroji may have skin which is not as good as another koi which is (temporarily) looking less white. Moving to the human analogy, a woman may have great skin, ie blemish free and glowing skin with really fine pores, but is currently looking tanned because she went to the beach last weekend, as compared to another woman who is very fair but skin is not glowing and her pores on closer examination are much bigger.

    Coming back to koi, good skin has a very silken look to it, like translucent. Sometimes when the koi is under a little stress (eg during medication or even during show time), the skin can turn slightly yellowish but it doesn't detract from the fact that it has good skin. Another koi may have (for the moment) better shiroji but perhaps inferior skin because the look of the shiroji is like paper or cotton, and not silk.

    So for this Sunday morning, just some food for thought. :) Good shiroji is not necessarily great skin. Many koi have good shiroji but only average skin. IMHO, it is much much more difficult to find a koi with great skin. So when both factors come together, ie great skin and great shiroji, it is truly a sight to behold!
  • ikankoikauikankoikau September 2011
    Posts: 1,053
    Agreed with you bro. Same thing with beni and sumi. Red beni doesn't meant better than orengy beni. I noticed that even deep red beni kohaku with good body can't take any of the top spot in the show.
    Good shiroji will have some silky shine effect. Good sumi will have lacquer effect and good beni should be thick and shiny. You can hardly see the scale's edges.

    Talking about women's skin, the Korean is a good example. Even the Japanese can't match them. Must be the kimchi effect ;-)
  • megatronmegatron September 2011
    Posts: 832
    Bro Capt, Korean used bb cream to cover their skin. That's why they look great. Hahahahah
    Don't ask me why!!!
  • JamesJames September 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Daniel, BB cream contrary to popular understanding was created by the Germans. But yes they r used most frequently by Koreans.
  • ShukriShukri September 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    Good skin SHINES.....silky smooth, and Persimmon RED is what the Japanese prefer for BENI. Blood or dark Red Beni is not always the best....... Shirogi as white as the Fuji Snow......is preferred.
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    I feel that the wonderful Korean skin is partly genetics and also partly cool weather. That's why I would always recommend chillers (if cost is not a problem) for hobbyists in tropical countries. :-D And also shading from too much direct sunlight.
  • JamesJames September 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Paul, I find food got a lot to do with it too. The current wheatgerm I am using is not so good for whites. My kois were much whiter before. But I'll know better when I switch back after my current wheatgerm finishes. FYI, most of the water used in Korean skincare is from natural springwater. So again it comes down to water quality.

    Bro Shukri, the soft white u're referring to is to die for. But v hard to find or maintain lor. I had a kohaku with this shiroji. Unfortunately it had boarded a flight to Japan. :-))
  • lautslauts September 2011
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro James ,

    You seem to know a lot abt cosmetic , skin care etc. You use them meh :/ or maybe like to hang out at cosmetic counters checking out the skin types of Asian women :-)) :-))

    ts
  • shawnshawn September 2011
    Posts: 14
    Bro. PH8 & Shifu
    I have one small Shiro Utsuri, the body skin is white bit the head more towards yellowish. Is it like that when it is about six inches.

    Thanks
  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    I don't have much experience with 6" koi, so I cannot answer that question, maybe others can. Bro James, I thought wheatgerm was much better than the high growth foods when it comes to shiroji? If your koi are turning yellow with wheatgerm, I suspect something else is wrong. JMHO. Maybe too much colour food or some other stressor. Most whitening foods (eg Nobori) are wheatgerm foods.

    Again, we are digressing from the topic. Skin and shiroji ARE different issues. You can have very white whites but average skin, that's the message I'm trying to pass through. Shiroji as white as Fuji snow only applies to shiros and showas. The whites for sanke and kohakus are different, more creamy and more like your ceramic toilet bowl! Take a look at the different varieties in your pond and you will realise the difference.

    Yes it will always be difficult to maintain good skin in our high temperatures. Which is why I mentioned chillers and shading.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-09-26 07:37:28 am
  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    Let me try to explain it another way. If we give our koi good food and good water, we can make their shiroji as white as it can possibly be, but we cannot make their skin nicer than their genetic limit. I feel that skin quality is genetic. All the koi in the same pond water eating the same food, but maybe only one (and only if we're lucky!) seems to have that special skin quality. Skin is more about texture and glow/shine than about plain whiteness. Not sure if I am making sense to you guys or not... Maybe I'm not articulating this so well.

    Of course if we give the koi lousy water and/or food, even a koi with good skin genetics will deteriorate.
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-09-26 07:35:42 am
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR September 2011
    Posts: 50
    Bro Shawn,

    Now you have to concentrate only on growth. So feed with hi-grow foods. When the fish growing fast the color will get slightly dull. But the shiroji will be the same on Shiro. The head yellowish color might get change over a period like when it reach more then 30cm.

    S.B. Sridhar
    Post edited by SBSRIDHAR at 2011-09-26 07:49:47 am
  • JamesJames September 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Lau, u're right... I do have a cosmetic outlet so I did have to hang out there a lot.

    Bro Paul I do not feed colour food. And with yellow I meant off white. Skin quality and shiroji are not that easy to tell apart. Skin that glows are usually white too. I m unsure if there can be glow for yellow shiroji.... Because as it yellows, skin quality deteriorates too. Just that if skin quality is good, it is easier to improve.
  • SBSRIDHARSBSRIDHAR September 2011
    Posts: 50
    The skin and shiroj both are genetic only. Depends up on the water quality, food and environment will take the maximum genetic level or lower level. I have develop kois less than 3 inch to more than 40cm. Basically the shiroji should be good one.

    S.B. Sridhar
  • shawnshawn September 2011
    Posts: 14
    Bro. SBSRIDHAR,

    Thank you for your advise.
  • raymond_ongraymond_ong September 2011
    Posts: 90
    Bro Paul, very agreed with you, though no budget for chiller, do put shading (double layers of orchid netting). Improvement on shiroji is noticeable.

    Remembered Bro James told during a visit to his pond (thnkz for the invitation Bro James, it was certainly a very educated one indeed), he is now 0% colour food. Maybe Bro James can keep us inform on the wheat germ issue.

    Bro lauts, don't under estimate Bro James, i think he just stand at entrance of the shopping mall, women will come and let him check on their skin. Haha

  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    Bro Raymond, just one word of warning about orchid netting, as shared with me by Brother David. Orchid netting is porous, as you know. Birds tend to come and rest on the orchid netting and shit there. Bird shit is also a source of parasites including fish lice. When it rains, all the bird shit will be washed into the pond.
  • JamesJames September 2011
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Raymond, not sure to take your comment positively or negatively le ... :-))
  • KaajKaaj September 2011
    Posts: 376
    Interesting :)

    My definition of skin quality - refers to the colors themselves being consistent - white, red, black, or what have you. It is always nice to see clean translucent like shiroji though. I think judges value skin as much as bodyline.

    Patten and sharpness (kiwa, sashi) would be classified as the finishing.
  • ShukriShukri September 2011
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Kaaj,
    How to be consistent with regards to skin quality and color? The areas covered by clothing will definitely be lighter than the ones exposed to the sun. Unless sun bathing in the nude with copper tone topical application......... :-)) :-D
    Sure can win GC after that..........
    In Koianswers Forum, no one individual is above the rest. This is the Forum for the Koi Community.
  • PH8PH8 September 2011
    Posts: 683
    Maybe a good way to differentiate skin and shiroji would be to give an example of a koi that many local hobbyists here recently saw. I'm talking about Bro Daniel Lee's Seijuro showa at Aka Koi last month. It beat all the other non ginrin showas to win 1st prize, non ginrin category. Was it the biggest koi? No. Did it have the best shiroji? No, not at all. It was in fact slightly yellowish from the stress. Why did it win then? Well, it had good body conformation, decent quality (beni mainly, sumi still not totally finished), balanced pattern AND the best skin. The white wasn't the best, but IMHO, the skin was. Btw, it's a HE. :)
    Post edited by PH8 at 2011-09-27 10:20:34 pm

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