Egg impaction problems in kois
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    To date, I have had 4 kois that died due to Egg Impaction Problem. For those that have the experience on how to deal with the matter, can you please share them with us. This is one area that I am not familiar with.

    Regards,
    Shukri
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  • AaronGohAaronGoh October 2010
    Posts: 110
    Hi Sukri,
    This is Andy's dainichi showa that I thought having Egg Impact but it turn out to be some internal problem.
    http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Cq0URp3NgIU/TKzF4wsf8CI/AAAAAAAAABo/AWQAsAIuw8A/s800/DSCN7780.JPG
    You can see that all the organ are in a mess:

    Bro Andy, sorry that you had lost this expensive koi from the MKS koi auction.
    Aaron
    +60123182002
    Post edited by koianswers at 2010-10-07 12:37:02 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Man, what a waste. Such a nice Showa. That's for sure not egg impaction problem. Like the French people always say, 'C'est La vie.' I am sure there are many more good ones in the pond.
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  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    bro shukri,
    I'm experimenting with the hormone that I feed ,so far one of my kohaku with a lot of egg has slimmed down....using the theory that is used in oral contraceptive tablets made for humans.will update you guys....
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Farik, really ka? Keep us posted.......
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  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Hi bro Farik, let me know your method. I have a sanke with egg problem too...i think..

    Bro Shukri, do u think it's egg problem? Need to do cosmetic, been feeding too much colour...

    http://koianswers.com/discussion/download/123/Sanke.jpg
    Post edited by James at 2010-10-15 04:16:57 am
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    Sanke.jpg 359K
  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    Bro James,
    U have to put this fella into a qt tank, but u have to determine that it is egg problem or just overfeeding, try to starve this fella and see wheter the belly shrink back to original size...if not then u have to give this fella a mixture of a hormone mix that i mix in the feed and give it once a day and the other 2 feeds of the day give normal feed.this is still in experimental stage so i only have tried it on 2 of my overladen fishes both of which is more than 3 years old and put it in the qt tank for 3 weeks. After it came back to the normal belly...it was put back into the main pond.so far so good as I have lost 3 eggladen females before and was looking an alternative.If you want the mix give me a call as it is a controlled item and i shall direct you to the place....takut kena sue pulak...he,he.not worried here though.

    Farik
    0192042418
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN October 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bro James,

    Your Sanke looks 1 Sided, normally 1 Sided is a Bit Worrying....sometimes it Turn Out to be Tumor wor...

    Other then that looks OK mah...don't think it need Cosmetic Surgery, maybe just put on Some Lip Stick will do leh....^_^
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Zain,

    well the secondary hi is unsightly, so when it gets bigger i probably will hv it removed... professionally this time, so that i don't kill koi anymore...

    will separate and stop feeding to see how it develops..

    Bro Farik,

    Will call u when i get back home, outstation now...
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro James,
    Are you in China?
    Where about in China?
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  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
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  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Shukri,

    Not in China now, but travel there more frequently nowadays. Why u need something in china? Regularly in Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

    So what is next step for this sanke? Or just get rid of it cos not show worthy??
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Appreciate if you can brick back a piece of the Brick from the Great Wall of China as a souvenir.........hehehehe! Just kidding man. The koi is quite nice actually. Like what bro Farik said, put the koi in the Q tank and do not feed for 10 to 15 days......see what happens after that.
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  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN October 2010
    Posts: 209
    Ya man, Bro James, just Throw it away into My Pond:--
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Zain, u sure you want a not so nice koi spoiling your koi collection?? Or u hinting to me it is worth keeping ?
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    Bro James, can try starve it for some time but slim chance lah.. Easier to goreng and get another piece.
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    precisely what i am thinking, but then again this means never really learn about the hobby... just hit and run everytime...
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN October 2010
    Posts: 209
    hehehe.....I can groom her....
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    groom her for show? if so, when do i send it to you?? *a bit thick skin on my side* but no choice la, want to create show koi collection...
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
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  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    This is a video of my Showa releasing eggs after I injected the Ovaprim the night before.

  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    That was in May this year. Interestingly, the koi is egg laden again just some 5 months later and this time the belly looks bigger than the last pregnancy. I injected the Ovaprim on Sunday. Only less than 100 eggs were released on Monday and I tried milking it yesterday and nothing came out. The koi was very weak after the injection of the Ovaprim and it nearly died yesterday-it was so weak that it could not even balance itself to swim straight. I thought I lost it. I quickly added S1 and the koi came back and was still alive as of last night 9pm.

    I actually did a secong Ovaprim injection yesterday 0.3 mg per kg instead of 0.5 mg per kg for the first injection. This was recommended by the supplier of the hormone.

    Going to check whether the fat lady is still alive or has released the eggs. I think it is suffering the labour pain and when the eggs couldn't be released, it became very weak. When it came back after swimming side way, that was a miracle in itself. I am praying for another miracle.

    If I didn't do anything, I do not think this lad can survive very much longer with the egg impaction. Getting pregnant twice in a year, headache..
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, thanks for sharing. It surely looked very easy there. We in KL have also tried with Ovaprim but failed even though with the dosage that is recommendated as written on the prescription. Nevertheless, looking at how easy it is in the video, we will try again whenever there is an egg impaction problem. Is there anything that we need to pay attention or any tips will be greatly appreciated.
    You looked like a pro there..........
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  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    The Showa is gone as expected. Will do a post mortem with the help of my good friend and sifu, George Liao and my great neighbour, CP Kueh.

    Hi Bro Shukri, that was not me molesting the koi in the video. It was my neighbour, CP Kueh, I was holding the camera.

    After the successful induced birth of the koi using Ovaprim as shown in the video, I thought I found a solution for the egg impaction problem. After Bro Paul's case and the demise of my Showa with the injection of the Ovaprim, it may not work all the time. The unanswered question even when we can tell that the fish is laden with eggs - "are the eggs matured enough to be released?" If it is premature for the fish to release the eggs, then injection of the Ovaprim would not help and may prove to be fatal like in my case.

    In the case of human, the foetus takes 9 months to mature. Premature births are possible at 6-7 months?? So in the case of koi, how long is "the gestation period" before the fish is ready for induced birth? Even if we know the gestation period, we won't know when the koi conceived unlike in the case of human where we can perform the ultrasound scan to know quite precisely when the baby was conceived based on the foetus size.

    Need input from some vet or doctor.

    Sorry to spoil a beautiful Sunday morning by breaking this sad news.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 12:41:21 am
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    hi bro sorry to hear the news.. always sad to lose a fish. I am sure with these sharing we gets better dealing with eggs problem. sometimes it just makes me want to focus on males.. less hassle.
  • DanleeDanlee October 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Alan,

    Sorry to hear about your loss. Bro David did advise not to do the second Ovaprim injection if the first injection failed. I think the biggest challenge is to know the best time for overprim injection. Some said we still need some male to help even with Ovaprim injection. I think we really need somone with very good success rate with overprim to share their experiences....BTW, I also bought a bottle of overprim but still does not have the courage to try after Bro Paul's and now your experience Do also die ..don't do also die. Looks lile "Pondan" is the way to go leh
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    Hi Dan, I know my Ginrin Hi Utsuri is having the same eggs problem. I spoke to several dealers and all advise me against injecting the fish to stimulate the eggs release. They seems to agree that moving the fish to a fiber tank, regular water change and threesome will help...
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro Alan, thanks for sharing the experience and observations. It is indeed a nice Showa. Many of us has Ovaprim but has no courage to try it as there isn't a certainty that it will work. Thanks for sharing, and this information that you have shared is vital for many of us.

    You are correct, possibly one day the expert i.e. a Vet of someone that has been breeding kois will come out and help us.

    Regards,
    Shukri
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  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Andy, Daniel and Shukri,

    Thanks for your concern.

    Just found out from the supplier and an expert from the Fishery Department here that there is another hormone that can be injected to make the eggs "mature" for release. It is called "HCG". Will try to source for it for my next pregnant fish, hopefully, not too pricy one, hehe...

    When I posed the question to Thomas, the Fishery expert on how do we know whether the eggs are mature and ready to be released? The answer was normally they would insert a tube through the vent of a pregnant fish to extract some eggs. Then the eggs would be placed in water and if they become loose easily rather than sticking together, then the eggs are "mature" and ready to be released. How many of us have the courage to do that?

    Bro Daniel and Bro Andy, weighing all factors, it may be wise not to do any injection and just change water regularly while waiting for natural birth rather than risking the induced birth.

    Hope we all learn from my costly experience.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 12:42:08 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    We are learning alright. Let me know about the HCG and how it works........
    Thanks bro for the update.
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  • BenjaminGohBenjaminGoh October 2010
    Posts: 419
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, always seem so easy when other are doing it..

    Bro Shukri, you want to experiment using my sanke?? Looks like a good way to resolve egg problems.
  • M_ZAINM_ZAIN October 2010
    Posts: 209
    Bro Alan,

    Did you give 'Fresh' Water Every Day....?

    Sorry to hear you lost.
    Regards,

    M. Zain
    +6019 333 3675
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, sad to hear of your loss...
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro James,

    It was certainly easy at the first instance.

    Bro Zain,

    I did change 30% of water everyday. Thanks for your concern. We are all learning in this hobby, 10 times faster with the forum, definitely.
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, you are right. It's always easy when it works, and we can get a little too petrified when it doesn't especially with such a precious piece. Maybe the question we should ask ourselves is how to create the natural environment for it so that we do not have to treat it medically. I am sure koi do not die from eggs as frequent as in ponds.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi all, with the help of George Liao and Kueh Chek Ping, we performed an autopsy on the showa that died from the egg impaction. Here are the pics taken.

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/160/2010_04_22_0939%20(Medium).JPG

    http://www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/161/2010_04_22_0940%20(Medium).JPG
    Post edited by etano at 2010-10-20 12:54:39 am
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    What a pity and real sad indeed.......
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  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    The result of the autopsy is that the koi died of egg impaction. The whole lower body was filled with eggs from the vent all the way to the throat. There must be more than 1 kg of eggs and that is why the stomach looked so bloated before it was cut up. The eggs were still pretty much clustered and not loose. So I reckon the eggs were not ready to be released.

    Another important point to note is that the vent area looked blocked and bled internally and that is probably another sign that the vent was not opened up and ready to release eggs, just like the opening up of cervical bone in the case of human to facilitate the delivery of the baby.

    Spoke to Bro Paul over the phone, he raised the interesting question "why do some koi like my Showa get egg impacted and not others, which means why the koi produced so much eggs when it was not even ready to release them?"

    My Showa was one of those ferocious eaters. Ate like a Chagoi but hadn't really grown much in the last 6 months, still 66cm. So the explanation could be the big eaters that are almost fully grown are more likely to be victims of egg impaction. But then I guess it also depends on the genetic of the koi, some are more fertile than others.

    The conclusion is that egg impaction will continue to haunt us and we are still in the hunt for a better and safer solution.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-17 11:25:22 am
  • AaronGohAaronGoh October 2010
    Posts: 110
    Bro Alan , Is that full of liquid like Andy's showa?
    Aaron
    +60123182002
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Aaron,

    Yes there were some fluid but I wouldn't say it was full of the liquid like Andy's Showa.
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, maybe the practice of fasting for the koi will work like how it cleanses the human body too??
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Andy,

    Thanks for helping to repost the pic. I resized the pics from large to medium and the ( ) came out and I didn't know it would affect the image. Thanks for teaching me.

    Bro James,

    Some do practise fasting the koi for months so that the koi would reabsorb the eggs. Don't know whether it works. It sounds pretty cruel, maybe feeding with just little wheatgerm would help rather total fasting.

    Cheers..
  • koikitkoikit October 2010
    Posts: 120
    Wheatgerm according to one Japanese breeder shud b given as staple (ESP in cold season) to help the digestion. Too must high protein food not good for koi too..

    I feed Sakai wheatgerm daily, certain mth I feed 20%Sakai colour wit 80%wheat germs.. Fast them one or twice a week..

    Sorry abt ur lost...
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, I think full fasting contrary to popular belief is not cruelty. Because like it or not our ponds will have some algae and kois feed on that... enough to get on and not taxing on the digestive system. The key is to ensure that the digestive system is not overworked....
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    So far, what I have heard about fasting ie that the eggs will be readsorbed back to the body. So far, I have not seen nor confirm by the hobbyist here......
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    Post edited by Shukri at 2010-10-21 09:35:42 am
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Kit,
    I feed my koi 33% wheatgerm, 33% colour and 33% growth starting last month. Thanks for your concern. I bought a Tancho today to replace the Showa I lost.

    Hi Bro James,
    Wrong choice of word for me, Bro. James. What I meant is cannot resist not feeding la.

    Bro Shukri,
    I read that somewhere, not sure whether it works.
  • ShukriShukri October 2010
    Posts: 4,881
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  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    If we want to fast a koi laden with eggs, better use QT, I think. Otherwise, the rest also need to fast, not fair leh..
  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    bros,
    this laden with egg thing has got something to do with hormone.... the feeds that we feed also contains small traces of hormone so therefore some are more then pthers. If the feed contains more soymeal protein then it contains more phytoestrogen that will actually increase egg production , the act of putting two males and the pregnant female also will actually increase the natural hormones to work...ie to ripen the vent to release the eggs.the hcg is the hormone that surges when an animal is pregnant but i'm not too sure on fish... need a vet to confirm.when it comes to drugs i can give some input.That's why i'm still experimenting with the few hormones that i feed the "Bunting"(overladen with eggs)koi.After seeing a few losses at ovaprim... will keep all the bros updated.... if you have candidates for me to experiment on do pm me..
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Farik, pls check PM.
  • etanoetano October 2010
    Posts: 471
    Bro Alan,

    You said "My Showa was one of those ferocious eaters. Ate like a Chagoi but hadn't really grown much in the last 6 months, still 66cm.". I think you should fast the fish for a long period of time when you spotted the bloated tummy. More food will just kill the fish. It is not unusual to fast a koi for more than 2 months sometimes a whole season. I suggest to isolate the fish and fast it in a fibre tank for 1-2 months (or given very little food) if you happen to have another like this in the future. Sorry for your lost.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    well bro I have a pond with many bloated tummy fish but lazy to isolate as I don't have space for a fiber tank.. over feeding seems ok to some fish but certain fishes just can't take it..
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Elmen,

    Only 1 QT at home, needed for new fish which is quite frequent still, you know my problem. No facility to fast the koi. Maybe I should get another QT and do as you suggest the next time I come across one. Thanks for the tip.

    Come to think of it the net cage that we saw in Niigata can be used to isolate a koi in the pond. What do you think?

    Does fasting really solve the egg impaction problem?

    I was asking the supplier of Ovaprim here to look for a medication to inject the female koi so that it will not even produce eggs? It is like castration in the case of male? In commercial farming, they have a hormone that turns male to pondan by injecting female hormone. Maybe Bro Farik can give us some input on this.

    Bro Andy,

    I agree that overfeeding does not affect some fish but may accelerate the egg impaction problem in some koi. In my case I feed 0.7% of their body weight only.
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-20 07:57:58 am
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Bro Alan, I was about to suggest the net cage. Or like Bro Thiam Hwa's place I saw in the forum, partition the pond a little. In any case fasting of koi occassionally is good anyways. Like I said, it cleanses the body of toxins...
  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    Bro sim,
    yes it is true that in commercial farming, they give this hormone to make the male change sex.... this is the hormone that i'm experimenting with....but it is damn expensive.... in powder form 2gm is going for rm 700.00. it is used in the feed and given to the kois. so therefore with the same theory i'm trying to stop ovulation by feeding the female kois oral pills.this method is used for cats as well therefore it should work for kois....will keep u updated.
  • AnuarAnuar October 2010
    Posts: 688
    Bro Alan,

    Long time no talk, glad to see you here.

    Sorry for your loss, I had the same mishap earlier this year. Prior to her departure, I noticed that the vent was bulging out. Tried the frequent water change method but she got all tensed up and banged on the qt cover, it was a bloody experience - lasted 3 days only. Had no choice but to just leave her in the main pond. When I cut opened the gut, it was a similar sight as your photo.

    BTW, did this experience make you change your feeding mix?

    Regards.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Bro Farik, ok the word is ovulation. I have given back all my biology back to my teacher. If u r able to stop the ovulation, then we are half way to solving the egg impaction problem. We are waiting for your good news. We will give you a Nobel Prize for that. Thanks, bro Farik..
  • koifankoifan October 2010
    Posts: 59
    Bro Sim,

    Wow...you mean you need to press the belly of the fish the following day after injecting Ovaprim?
    Post edited by koifan at 2010-10-21 09:13:50 am
  • AndySittAndySitt October 2010
    Posts: 560
    Guys I am trying to get an experience koi dealer to show the way he solve this problem.. Hopefully can be a lesson for all of us... Who knows, maybe can then pay them to do it..
  • etanoetano October 2010
    Posts: 471
    I was chatting about this subject with Raymond Hew. He has never experienced this problem despite his long time in the hobby. He has some big female in the bigger pond, we both guessed that controlled feeding will reduce this risk.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • koifankoifan October 2010
    Posts: 59
    That's very interesting.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Koifan, we milked the koi after injecting the Ovaprim, not really pressing hard. It was just a gentle action.

    Hi Bro Andy, that would be great if the dealer can do a demo on video and then we would all benefit greatly from it.

    Bro Elmen, I guess controlled feeding would definitely help but cannot be a complete solution. I believe with controlled feeding, some koi will still be ladened with eggs. It is a great news for us to hear that Bro Raymond never encountered the problem of egg impaction which means maybe only a small percentage of the koi would face this problem.

    Does keeping all female koi in a pond help to reduce the problem in the sense that no male koi to stimulate the female to produce eggs? Just wondering...
    Post edited by yysim88 at 2010-10-23 08:18:22 am
  • JamesJames October 2010
    Posts: 1,964
    Theoretically speaking I think keeping all female would be worse. I liken this to the normal hormone imbalance from our female partners. It is a cycle that must happen and if managed well the side effects, ie mood swings and egg impaction in case of kois would be minimal.

    Or maybe I am talking gibberish!!
  • farikfarik October 2010
    Posts: 317
    A pond full of females won't make it better as ovulation will take place and it will happen every cycle...what we want to do is to replicate the condition in nature where the conditions are ngam for them to be ready to release their eggs ...one way is to make your pond ala mud pond colour and put some vegetation so that the female kois are not threaten and ready to release their eggs with the help from the males....that's what happen in our batch of sallymiya yamabuki...speaking of which is really good quality but mine is very shy when eating guessing that it is a male....but nice body and colour....but i guess if we do this then we won't be able to enjoy seeing our lovely jewels in crystal clear water.
  • yysim88yysim88 October 2010
    Posts: 340
    Thanks Bro Farik for the info. Much appreciated.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    My khohaku also facing same problem, been put in a qt for a week.Still no sign of egg release. I think will lost this koi. Need help from all sifu here...
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bro, this is one area that I have ZERO knowledge. I have lost 4 so far due to egg impaction. I am also as eager as you are on how to deal with the situation.
    I am also looking up to the bros like Alan Sim etc........
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  • AnuarAnuar November 2010
    Posts: 688
    Bro, I read that Dato Razif induced through frequent water change in the qt, to stress the koi/ or maybe tried changing the temperature to induce egg release. Like Bro Shukri, I have also lost Kois in this manner. I think the main challenge is the timing, most of us are too late, i.e. The eggs would have probably hardened, and it will then be too late for the release.

    Good luck.
  • etanoetano November 2010
    Posts: 471
    Bro let me try to chip in my 2 cents. I think to induce spawning naturally, the best time to do it is at the late spring or the beginning of summer (May/June). To create water temperature change you try those aquarium heater in the QT by on and off it frequently or add new cooler water frequently. If this fails then try overprim injection as last resort.
    MyKoiKichi.com ~ A new koi blog.
  • ShukriShukri November 2010
    Posts: 4,881
    Bros, these information are good........ (ok) Without these kind of tips, it will take us a life time before we know what's happening. Setting the right parameters is worth a try. Normally I am quite observant with regards to cats and guinea pigs behavior prior to mating and delivering babies, but these kois are not giving me the signs at all until it is too late i.e. kick the bucket. Those books that tell us about koi spawning and breeding with be good.
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  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    Thanks all sifu here for the knowledge. Seem egg impaction was one off the challenge to a newbie like me. When i was on the way home from kepong i receive a call from my sister in law told me that,your koi been join to haven. Sad to hear that news.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    I am sorry to learn of the demise of your koi. I just spoke to the supplier of Ovaprim and was told that there is a special tube used to extract eggs to see if the fish is ready to release the eggs before hormones are injected to induce release of eggs. He is emailing me an article on this. Will post the article here when received.
  • tomatomoontomatomoon November 2010
    Posts: 97
    thank you brother for the good news, hope it will help us to solve the egg impacttion for our koi.
  • DanleeDanlee November 2010
    Posts: 694
    Bro Alan,

    This is good news.. the biggest challenge is to know when koi is ready to release eggs, when is a good time to use ovaprim... really looking forward to the article.
  • yysim88yysim88 November 2010
    Posts: 340
    Hi Bro Daniel, here is the article.

    "Induced spawning by hormone injection

    After stocking seabass broodstock in the pre-spawning tank for two months, the fish are inspected twice a month during spring tide, Ovarian maturity of the female is measured as follows: the eggs are sampled from the female through the use of a polyethelene cannula of 1.2 mm in diameter. The fish is either anaesthetized or inverted gently with a black hood over the head. The cannula is inserted into the oviduct for a distance of 6–7- cm from the cloaca. Eggs are sucked orally into the tube by the operator as the cannula is withdrawn. The eggs are then removed from the cannula and egg diameter measurement is made. When the seabass eggs reach the tertiary yolk globule stage or have a diameter of 0.4–0.5 mm, the female is ready for hormone injection. In males, only those with running milt are chosen.
    The hormones usually used to induce spawning in seabass that produce reliable results are:
    • Puberogen
    • HCG + pituitary gland of Chinese carp
    Puberogen consists of 63% follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and 34% Leutinizing hormone (LH). The dosage usually applied is 50–200 IU/kg of fish. The fish will spawn at about 36 hours after injection. If no spawning occurs, the second injection is applied 48 hours after the first injection. The dosages of second injection should be double from that of the first injection and can also be given 24 hours after the initial injection. The male is usually injected at the same time as the female with a dosage of 20–50 IU/kg of fish. The fish will normally spawn within 12–15 hours after the second injection.
    Homogenized pituitary glands of Chinese carp are used at 2–3 mg/kg of fish mixed with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 250–1,000 IU/kg of fish. The time interval of application and spawning are the same when using puberogen.
    Before injection, the spawner should be weighed and the hormone requirement computed. Spawners should be injected intramuscularly below the dorsal fin. After injection, they should be transferred from pre-spawning tank to the spawning tank. Twenty four hours after first injection, response of the fish to the hormone treatment is often manifested by the swelling of the belly. If the fish is expected to spawn within the nenxt 12–15 hours, a milky white scum (fatty in texture) will appear on the water surface of the spawning tank. If not, a second injection should be given.
    Seabass that are induced to spawn by hormone treatment will always spawn within 12 hours after the second injection. The schedule of injections for subsequent spawning must be synchronized with the natural spawning time of the fish which occurs in late evening between 1800 to 2000 hours.



    General Features:
    Ovaprim is a liquid, peptide supplement that is used:
    • to compress the spawning season,
    • to coordinate spawning times,
    • to increase milt production in males,
    • safely and with predictable results.
    Ovaprim utilizes the fish’s own endocrine system to safely induce maturation and coordinate spawning dates. When used in the normal spawning cycle, Ovaprim can synchronize and coordinate maturation in treated fish by significantly advancing maturation without affecting viability or fecundity. Ovaprim has been tested and proven effective in 6 species of salmonids and several other cultured species. Ovaprim is a licensed and registered in several countries.
    Product Description:
    • ---contains an analogue of salmon GnRH, the native peptide found in most teleost fish,
    • ---also contains a dopamine inhibitor that is required in many cultured fish species,
    • ---is a peptide supplement that is delivered in an inert vehicle,
    • ---comes in a formulated concentration that can be used in any size of fish,
    • ---will begin to induce maturation immediately (species dependant) after injection for fast results.
    A single dose of Ovaprim is normally sufficient to induce maturation. Initial priming doses can be used to potentiate maturational effects. Ovaprim comes in self-sealing bottles of two sizes, 10 and 100ml. Injections of Ovaprim are delivered to the peritoneal (abdominal) cavity using a standard needle and syringe. Ovaprim can be used in photoperiod-controlled or temperature-controlled fish and can be used in conjunction with other therapeutants as advised by a veterinarian."

  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    Hi Bro,

    I have a little suggestion.

    Instead of going into the details to understand how to Induce Spawning, Clear egg, etc...Maybe we should take a step back to work on prevention methods.

    If you look at the few koi photos shown here, they have also gone beyond the normal body shape. I believed these koi must be swimming in a Helicopter style for quite sometimes. (head pointing downwards, tail flapping upward.)

    The food that we are feeding is high protein, probably high fats too. And there are some practising continuous Heavy Feeding.

    We should learn how to manage the koi, and notice the change in behavior, swimming style, and body shape.

    Stop feeding, to me, is the most effective method to counter many problems.
    I used to trial and error with medications in the past, but I've stop doing so for the last 1-2 years, including salt, unless the situation is serious.

    Be it ulcer, red rashes, parking, motionless floating, splash out of water, etc...I would stop feeding for 3-5 days or even more.
    YOu will be able to see how effective it is for stop feeding. Problem is hobbyists, many will not be able to resist not feeding.

    As mentioned by others, our pond is full of "food". the 1st few days of stop feeding is not really counted.
    after the 1st few days, I can see that my pond floor bed algae is also dissappearing. This should be the day we start counting as stop feeding.

    In my opinion, those koi that develop helicopter swimming, is probably too late to do anything.

    If you look at those spawning video found in youtube, you will notice that the spawning female is Fat, but body shape still very nice.

    Thanks. :)











  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Pohbeng,

    There are a few established hobbyist advocating stop feeding, can you explain your method? Do you practise stop feeding on a schedule like once a week , or maybe few weeks in a year ? Or only when you encounter problem? How much do you feed daily in term of est % of body weight. Type of diet , varied with wheatgerm, hi protein , added vege etc? Hope you do not mind the probing questions, am here to learn from those who knows better.

    :-) :-)
    thanks
    ts
  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    TS,

    I do not have fixed pattern schedule.
    But in general, my koi will b stop feeding once every 2-3 months easily.

    Usually I observe the behaviour.

    Behaviour/ to look out :
    1. Continuous days of hot sun and afternoon short rain.
    2. When the koi look inactive
    3. flashing
    4. parking
    etc.....sometimes is run out of food and didn't go and buy!

    My house pond will be worst. When I travel, they are on stop feeding! On average, they only eat about 10-20 days a month. :P

    Maybe I too Kiasu...so stop feeding became quite common once every 1-2 months or 2-3 months. So no schedule. :D

    Food wise, I feed saki hikari as main. Sometimes use sakai, and sometimes FD or other brand. Not fixed.

    Most Important is that keeping and feeding koi has no fixed formulae or pattern. You just need to observe and adjust accordingly.
    Post edited by pohbeng at 2010-11-30 04:23:19 am
  • AndySittAndySitt November 2010
    Posts: 560
    Well I find people who control their feeding regime to do much better in term of controlling eggs problem.. I wonder if its better to feed less or have a regular non feeding days...
  • lautslauts November 2010
    Posts: 1,248
    Pohbeng,

    Your stop feeding means abt 7 days no feeding. With no define schedule but likely monthly , sometimes every two to three month. The feed used is also high protein considering sakai and FD used. Any supplements like vege? may i ask how many females above 70cm in the pond and pond depth?

    thanks
    ts
  • pohbengpohbeng November 2010
    Posts: 114
    TS

    my koi are mainly posted in here.
    http://koifish.blog.com/

    I keep most of them (should be all female except for 1 or 2) in a 100+ ton pond, depth of 4-6ft, longish.
    About 10 pcs are in a 8 ton pond of 3ft. (largest is abt 75cm).

    The stop feeding can be 2-3 days to 1-2 weeks, depend on the situation. It is hard to give a specific schedule or routine. As mentioned, you need to observe the koi behaviour, even their swiming style.

    only pellet food now. :D



  • niveknivek December 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Any recent solution found to this problem, other than fasting? :)
    Post edited by nivek at 2013-12-04 12:34:59 pm
  • ckleecklee December 2013
    Posts: 85
    Hi all,
    my way is keeping some male in my pond and let all fish fasting about 10days to 2weeks,and try to change more water,asspecially on raining time.thn the male will chase the female til she release out..
    I believe many ppl like to keep female in their pond n kick out all d male,i strongly believe it will make the condition more worst.
    my advise is "Just to let the male doing their job''.
  • HDCuHDCu December 2013
    Posts: 1,117
    I have always believed that in koi keeping it should be more of prevention than cure.

    The eternal summer setting in a tropical setting provides a different approach in koi keeping as compared to a four season setting. In a four season setting, during summer time and when the condition for growth is ripe, high protein food is given plentiful to provide instant growth in length and in body shape as the window of growth is short. As the water begins to cool down metabolism slows and the koi adds girth and egg is produce. Winter time is when feeding is almost stopped and provides the opportunity for the koi to use its stored fat and reabsorb its eggs. As the koi emerges from winter its appetite slowly gets back.

    Now in a "eternal summer" setting the growing season is at least three x longer. Now try to imagine you have tosai along with several mature koi in your pond. You join a growout contest or you aim to grow your tosai as quick as possible so that "you dont miss out what you think is the best growth stage". Your eagerness even believe that a high protein koi food 40% above will be the best in growing the tosai. So you feed four or five times a day and are happy to see the tosai grow very fast while the mature koi seem to be adding on girth but growth seem to be slowing down despite being fed continuously. Some of the mature koi will loose their appetite but you notice a few heavy eater nisai or mature koi eagerly even hungry to your delight. But then you notice these heavy eater that have bulked up are growing slower in length actually and starting to loose their conformation that they had before. You shrug the matter maybe because the smaller tosai are a delight to see that they have grown fast while a some mature koi seem to be doing ok since they have added more girth. Then you realize that it is too late and you have an egg impaction problem already.

    So what lesson should be learned?
    1. As much as possible keep same size koi. Tosai are still immature and can get away with heavy feeding for a year even with high protein food. Older koi on the other hand need to have regulated feeding amount.
    2. Learn how to deal with eternal summer setting. If in a four season setting the short growing period requires a feed rate of 1.5 percent or more of koi food of of high protein, I do not see how even feeding 1 percent of high protein food nonstop would not bring about too much egg development that can cause egg impaction.
    3. Fasting in an "eternal sunshine" setting is a must if you want to keep females. The duration and frequency of the fast would depend on many factors such as water temperature, protein content of feed, absorbtion rate, feed rate, etc. Do not be fooled that a koi without a big belly will never suffer from egg impaction. A koi that puts its energy requirement in storing more and more eggs will grow slower in the long run as the egg multiply and grow bigger inside.
    4. I do not know if it works but i do keep one mature male koi. The reason why only one male is that if i keep two or three male may rough up a female. One male with a bunch of female will just at most cause some short episode of chasing and occassional realease of a some eggs.
    Post edited by HDCu at 2013-12-04 06:41:51 pm
  • BthineshkumarBthineshkumar December 2013
    Posts: 1,763
    =D> =D>

    Gud read bro HDCu
  • niveknivek December 2013
    Posts: 1,251
    Good info (Y)
  • ashfaqashfaq December 2013
    Posts: 799
    (Y) Very nicely said, good read brother @HDCu
    Thanks,
    Ashfaq from India-Chennai
  • niveknivek July 2014
    Posts: 1,251
    Here are 2 methods that can be considered as last resort to save your egg bound kois. Do note that the below 2 methods are being used to extract eggs from paddlefish for caviar but the concept should be similar.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC1wwunHyvU

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhsMkyLOtBI

    Post edited by nivek at 2014-07-21 11:42:35 pm
  • lautslauts July 2014
    Posts: 1,248
    Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for sharing, something worth serious thought. It is well known fact from experience of koi sifus that when koi egg is not ripe/ready for release , injection of egg hormone ( for egg release purpose) will likely kill the koi. I am not sure if it applies here. In that if the koi egg is not ready and we force it , will it kill the koi?
    So far i think the safest way is still the natural way , maybe bro MRkoi Azmi can share more on?

    ts

  • mrkoimrkoi July 2014
    Posts: 496
    Bro Lau,

    You are totally right. The fish must be healthy and ready. If not, u may end up kill the fish.
  • lautslauts May 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Some latest experience to share .

    I seldom have issues from big kois dying on me from suspected egg problem until now. And i have been keeping them to jumbos for sometime now .
    I always believe you can take kois from nature but not nature from kois. This May and June is the usual koi spawning season in Japan. Unless you have been very careful to feed , fast and rotate feeding , your kois may over accumulate eggs and this may cause problems.

    I usually will be on low protein wheatgerm from Nov until April yearly . For some reason due to rotation between fasting , low protien and bulking , the last few month Nov to end Jan i have been feeding quite a lot high protein, at abt 0.5 to 0.7% of body weight. One month's fasting in Feb , really non feeding for 3 weeks solid. And back to high protein and wheatgerm mix in Mar to now. So even 3 weeks of solid fasting did not help , if it was done ad hoc after too long a high protein feed. Another thing is slowing down of water flow by pointing downwards , hence lacking exercise to build bulk.

    Few of my big mamas have been resting at pond bottom occasionally. 2 of them including my 80cm purachina ogon died two weeks ago, and she wasn't too heavy on the stomach. Autopsy shows body full of eggs all rather similar and healthy looking , other internal parts looks ok. Nothing looks impacted or abnormal abt the eggs. i think the egg overproduction due to good food and lack of exercise have caused the internal organs to be impeded. Contributing to weaken koi and organ failure displayed by dropsy.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17484/ogon.jpg

    Symptoms started as regular resting at pond bottom , then progressed to raised scales like dropsy, only at shoulder area. Otherwise healthy and eating normal. Then progressed slowly to slight bloating then suddenly to full dropsy with bloated body all within 2 weeks .

    So i had to do something with the egg issue so have tried last week i female and 3 males in QT , with water changes every morning for 3 days, NOTHING so back to pond.
    Then this morning , 2 females kois was in QT due to sluggishness and antibiotic jab not for spawning actually. With just soft leaves did the trick even with no males but the other female pushing it around. No Ovaprim either.

    I have been researching and checking on use of Ovaprim.

    Some lessons learnt;

    a) Condition to activate spawning is important , one way is to add some leaves and early morning water changes to stimulate them. Use the soft and small leave type mine was tip of jasmine plant tied together. ie has white very fragrant flowers. Worth a try without Ovaprim and all natural.

    b) If using Ovaprim for egg release, just use on female not male as well. The female when ready will signal by release of hormone to activate the males . Even with Ovaprim AND egg are ready , still needs pressure to release egg , either from male or hand stripping.

    c) How to know when to stripping ? When female is ready after Ovaprim , the males will chase it like crazy, then either leave the male to do the job or help hand strip.

    d) IF you want to egg strip, DO NOT start after applying Ovaprim , let the males start the signal and when you see eggs starting to come out then you can strip.

    e) Your kois do not have to be having a big belly to be eggs laden . Both my ogon and now showa was rather thin on the stomach but eggs are ready. While 2 fat mamas have not been successful with just leaves .

    f) Ovaprim will work on ready eggs within 12 hrs, so inject at night say 8pm and next morning abt 6am IF eggs are ready , you will see action.

    g) If eggs not ready , Ovaprim will be absorbed by body without any harm. You may want to try again in 2 weeks after conditioning the kois via heavy feeding. This may ready the eggs for next dose of Ovaprim if you want to try and suspect kois may be ready.

    h) Antibiotic jabs is recommended after egg release.

    i) Eggs will be continually produced with or without males in the pond. By controlling feeding you control amt of eggs produced in koi. Chances of problem occuring from impaction and egg laden kois will be higher if more eggs are produced .

    j) Males in pond plays an important role. I have been letting go some big males leaving a few smaller males. This could have contributed to my egg problem. I think an all female pond will be faced with more egg problem. So diet plays a more important role.

    i will try leaves and Ovaprim on another one fat mama this weekend. Plus 3 males as assistants.
    If no eggs comes after 2 days ( if it happens it will be within 12 hrs) then she goes back to the pond. Update on the Ovaprim result then.

    Hope it help with your jumbos and avoid egg problems.

    Pict and videos later.

    ts

    Attachments
    ogon.jpg 145K
  • HDCuHDCu May 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Sorry for your losses Bro Lauts,

    From your description, it looked to me your koi died because of bacterial issues leading to dropsy.




  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Thank you bro HDCu.

    The big question is whether egg laden (not impacted but healthy i think ) has anything to do with these issues. No problems with smaller , other kois.
    There is no external body damages on both the kois. No reddening of the shiroji except towards the end when dropsy already sets in. They were still eating heartily and except for occasional settling at pond bottom and lethargy nothing much different. Yes and the slight raised scales later at the shoulder/ gill flap area before full blown dropsy.
    Hence i leave them be without any antibiotic jab , and coming too late when dropsy appear.

    After the autopsy on the 2nd koi ( no autopsy in first) only visible lots of eggs .Leading me to postulate the egg laden issue.

    Successful with Ovaprim on 2nd female, she release her eggs Sat morning after Ovaprim jab 8pm Fri night. by 11pm already some action with 3 males. Both females are healthy and doing good after 2 antibiotic jab and back to main pond.

    More to come and my dilemma, now i have leftover eggs from 1st spawning already hatched !! :-(( :-((

    ts
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Lauts,

    I am not sure if egg laden has anything to do with your recent death issues. It could be anything from bacterial to internal organ failure. I do not think "not able to spawn" eggs in an eternal sunshine setting would cause long term harm to a koi but then I could be wrong. Some female koi after summer have empty eggs while some carry eggs all the years. So there is genetics involoved as well. In addition, I do think the kind of food and how and how much the food at what period is fed somewhat causes development of much eggs.

    Vitamin E( depending on how much) in koi food seem to have a big effect. The importance of vitamin E in fish reproduction has been reported. For example, vitamin E caused higher gonadosomatic index, larger ova, and more eggs than a control in a study on the effect of
    vitamin E and growth hormone on the gonadal maturity of freshwater fish (Cyprinus carpio) (Gupta et al., 1987). In addition, complete spawning occurred in fish fed a diet
    containing vitamin E, but only partial spawning occurred in the fish fed diets without vitamin E (Gupta et al., 1987).


    Lately I injected 3 consecutive days of antibiotic shots to one of my 80cm female kohaku(not egg impacted) that was acting listless for 2 days and not going up to the surface to eat. The only factor I can remember is changing brand of koi food( no problem with others as they still ate aggressively), intense heat and sudden pouring of rain, and some ongoing demotion around 12 meters away in my house. No visible external signs and no signs of parking. However, my intiution told me something is amiss and took the pro active approach to inject immediately. The kohaku seem to respond better swimming leisurely now at around 2 to 5 feet. It has not gone up to eat aggressively as before but I can see her already grazing on some bottom algae and munching on some small sinking feeds. Hopefully she can recover 100%.

    Growing and maintaining jumbo female koi is definitely present some problems that even makes the more experience koi hobbyist humbled. However, the reward of having some beautiful jumbo koi swimming in ones pond is enough to take on the risks associated with it.
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Bro HDCu,

    Thanks for info on vit E.
    There is no sure thing as with most things, not all smokers end up with lung cancer. I do prefer not to have a female full of eggs esp if it disrupt the good body view and graceful movement.
    So now one option is to use Ovaprim. Fasting ad hoc even 3 weeks no feeding solid did not help. It is safe with my showa, will try on 2 others when i decide on the koi fry now abt 3-4mm already :-((
    i am observing the females now in pond providing them best water. To reduce coliforms i have turn on the UV and applied Remedor ( kills bacts , fungi and virus).
    Reduce the risk , the females infected after egg release.

    Better body conformation and movement for sure (Y) after no massive egg released from body, 500grs less . :-))
    The bag with egg is 1ft long and 3in thick full of egg ,
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17488/koi egg.jpg

    female 73cm Seijuro ( from Elmen's GO prize koi) after egg release

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17489/Seijuro Mama.jpg

    Pict taken Oct2014 , 7 month ago , stomach was more full just before spawning.

    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17490/Seijuro Oct2014.JPG

    Some observations of mine later .

    ts
    Post edited by lauts at 2015-06-02 12:11:28 pm
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Bro Lauts,

    I have some questions I hope you can share:
    1. Normally what is the protein content of the food (no need to mention the brand)? Wheatgerm or fish protein?
    2. Are the koi that get more egg laden have a bigger appetite?
    3. How many times a day do you feed? Do you feed small servings several times a day or big servings just few times a day?
    4. Does you koi after feeding still swim around to look for food or mostly stay inactive after feeding?
    5. How often do you practice fasting?
  • lautslauts June 2015
    Posts: 1,248
    Hi bro HDCu,

    Sorry to take awhile to come back , tending to the fry really takes a lot of time.
    The spawned females are doing fine. The babies are fed egg yolk and you can see the yellow in their tummies. Here is the other mama Dainichi , she took 2nd in 2011 Yamakoshi GO.
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17510/mama daishowa.jpg

    The fries , 2 mamas both showa. Papas were a Daikon showa , a sakai sanke and a Hi Utsuri.
    My question when culling what do i keep ? Just the black fries kurokos ? Do i expect any Hi Utsuri and sankes ? Anyone ??
    www.koianswers.com/discussion/download/17511/koifry4June15.jpg

    To your question bro

    a) I feed mostly Saki Growth , Basic and Colour mix and rotated. Also Hi Silk and Kokusai Colour and Vitality occasionaly . I think 40% protein in Saki except Basic, not sure how much. I have not fed Wheatgerm for years. The last 6 month i have used mix of Hi Silk , Growth and Colour all above 40% .This is not the norm feed pattern. Lower protein food wasn't available.

    b) All my kois have great appetite i really can;t see any difference. If you mean they eat more than the rest , not sure.

    c) I use autofeeder set 4 times feeding per day 7, 11, 3 and 7pm. I feed abt 0.3 to 0.4% daily. Est weight of kois by length . Sometimes they get extra treats of Hi Silk at night.

    d) After feeding they will still look for food munching the wall and floor. This will be for sometime then they will be inactive like regurgitating the food. A few will rest at pond bottom then.

    e) 1 day fasting every week after water change. Then 1 full week fasting after every month feeding.

    Hope it helps and hope to get some help on the culling issue.

    thanks
    ts
  • HDCuHDCu June 2015
    Posts: 1,117
    Thanks Bro Lauts for your replies.

    Could it be possible that feeding higher % of protein(above 40%) for 6 month and feeding Hi silk at night when koi are usually less active lead to higher probability of egg development?


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